homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Bloody Brexiteers (Page 4)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  ...  27  28  29 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Bloody Brexiteers
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

 - Posted      Profile for Nightlamp   Email Nightlamp   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:


After the UK Parliament ratifies a Brexit vote, we give notice to the EU that we intend to leave. At this point Article 50 has been invoked, and we have 2 years to negotiate our new (out) relationship with the EU.

Interestingly enough article 50 doesn't have to be brought to parliament, the Prime Minister can do it on his own.
Imagine the Prime Minister invoking it on the 24th June & resigning on the 25th.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541

 - Posted      Profile for Rocinante   Email Rocinante   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Looks like the Tory party break-up may have started:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36543091

Watching the Tories tear each other to shreds, when this thrice-damned referendum started out as a Hameron ruse to keep them together, has been wonderful popcorn entertainment. Unfortunately the second act may be more of a tragedy than a farce.

Posts: 362 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Looks like the Tory party break-up may have started:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36543091

Watching the Tories tear each other to shreds, when this thrice-damned referendum started out as a Hameron ruse to keep them together, has been wonderful popcorn entertainment. Unfortunately the second act may be more of a tragedy than a farce.

I think there's a different story actually taking shape here. Someone in the pub last night asked an interesting question from an angle I'd not considered - viz "when Cameron dreamed up the referendum, did he realise he was finishing off the Labour party?"

There are Labour MPs currently pounding the streets of economically depressed constituencies, with the Remain leadership having belatedly realised that they may just hold the key to ensuring we stay in the EU.

And, anecdotally, but reported almost daily in the Graun and other papers, they're getting the doors slammed in their faces. Reading BTL in the latest Giles Fraser column in Comment Is Free, there's a fragmentation opening up between the British Left(TM), and the working class, which this referendum is merrily putting the tin lid on.

It's Scotland all over again, Labour are manfully having to shoulder (for the greater good - I'm voting remain) being on the right side in a vote which divorces them from their own voters.

The Tories have, whatever else they have, a track record of pragmatism and coming together to achieve victories. I'll stick my neck out and say this time will be no different. Labour are the ones really shafting themselves here, and I think that penny, with some Labour MPs, has started to drop in the last couple of days.

*If* we vote to Remain - and with increasingly sadness I suspect that's going to be a big if - Cameron will yet again have (presumably accidentally) played an absolute blinder. The Tories get to rebuild themselves - and let's not forget that a majority of Tory MPs and donors are Remainers, while Labour are pushed further than ever from their own core voters, and find it harder to get a hearing in their own safe seats at the next election.

If we vote to Remain, then the beneficiaries are the Tory party, if we vote to Leave, the beneficiaries are the Tory right. Either way I suspect that the real victims are the Labour Party. It looks like the left press (such as it is) is starting to wake up to that.

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1439 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541

 - Posted      Profile for Rocinante   Email Rocinante   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think you may have just swung my vote for leave, Betjemaniac.

LOL not really. I have no particular love for either of the two main parties, if all this nonsense sets in train a major realignment of UK politics than some good will have come of it.

Posts: 362 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
I have no particular love for either of the two main parties, if all this nonsense sets in train a major realignment of UK politics than some good will have come of it.

That does rather depend on which way the realignment proceeds...

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29952 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Cameron has definitely not played a blinder. He's played a blunder. I'm sure he thought the scare stories would win the day. Like many a PM before him, he simply didn't realise how much trust he had lost.

Working class Labour (or former Labour) supporters heading for UKIP and/or joining the little Englanders is a bit like the rust-belt Democrats voting for Donald Trump. Sad, sad, sad. Selling their souls for a mess of pottage? Well, a mess anyway.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20933 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Cameron has definitely not played a blinder. He's played a blunder. I'm sure he thought the scare stories would win the day. Like many a PM before him, he simply didn't realise how much trust he had lost.

Whilst I entirely agree with you, *if* he does manage to pull it off then it's another tick in the "lucky general" box because he'll have got what he wanted largely despite himself. Just like last year's GE, the Scotland referendum, the AV vote, etc.

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1439 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
within the EU the UK can't negotiate a deal with Australia because the UK then becomes a low-tariff route into the EU.

And that's a problem because...

quote:
If we leave the EU, but arrange some sort of free-trade treaty with the EU that won't change.
I don't see why we shouldn't be free to trade with whomever we want, on whatever terms we want. If I buy my fruit from Tesco that shouldn't mean that if I buy my vegetables from Morrison I have to pay the same price as I would at Tesco, even though Morrison are selling them for far less.

quote:
If you want to trade with other nations then you will have to abide with their product standards and codes - and things are an awful lot easier if those are the same as your own. Whether in or out of the EU, so long as the EU is a major customer of our goods and supplier to our market, there will still be no market for over-powered vacuum cleaners.
The problem is that as long as we have to abide by EU standards then we aren't allowed to make and sell overpowered vacuums at all. But if there are British companies that want to make them and British people who want to buy them then what has that got to do with anywhere else?

quote:
The only way to avoid those sort of restrictions is to close our borders entirely and trade with no one.
There are many countries that seem to manage it. I wonder what their secret is.

quote:
But, I challenge anyone to point to an example of UK legislation that was blocked by the EU, or because of EU opposition didn't even get to a white paper
Of course there won't be any such examples. Parliament is busy enough as it is, why on earth would any of them bother even starting to write a paper that they knew would be blocked?

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29952 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
within the EU the UK can't negotiate a deal with Australia because the UK then becomes a low-tariff route into the EU.

And that's a problem because...

quote:
If we leave the EU, but arrange some sort of free-trade treaty with the EU that won't change.
I don't see why we shouldn't be free to trade with whomever we want, on whatever terms we want.
Because by making trade deals with some nations we automatically restrict what deals we can make with others. If the UK makes a trade deal with Australia that means that Australian companies can ship their goods into the UK with reduced (or zero) import tariffs. But, we also have a free trade agreement with the EU. Therefore, those imported goods can be re-exported to the rest of the EU without incurring tariffs. That means that the trade agreement the UK has made with Australia is a de-facto agreement with the whole of the EU - and the rest of the EU had no say in it. Which isn't right, and is why trade deals are negotiated by the whole EU.

quote:
If I buy my fruit from Tesco that shouldn't mean that if I buy my vegetables from Morrison I have to pay the same price as I would at Tesco, even though Morrison are selling them for far less.
A more reasonable analogy would be if you ran a restaurant, and had an arrangement with the local baker to supply all your bread at a 20% discount on condition that (subject to the baker meeting his end of the agreement by baking enough bread at a specified quality) the arrangement is exclusive. You've got a good deal - reduced price, locally baked bread with a guaranteed supply. The baker has a good deal - a guaranteed daily sale. But, it does mean that if you decide to buy your rolls from someone else because they're cheaper then your existing arrangement with the local baker is invalid, and he can now start to charge full price for what he does sell.

You're not under any sort of contract with Tesco or Morrisons to buy their fruit or veg. International trade is subject to treaties, and those treaties have implications that can't be easily dismissed.

quote:
The problem is that as long as we have to abide by EU standards then we aren't allowed to make and sell overpowered vacuums at all. But if there are British companies that want to make them and British people who want to buy them then what has that got to do with anywhere else?
Because we're in a free trade zone. By definition that means anyone in the zone can freely buy from anywhere else in the zone. If the UK sells over-powered vacuum cleaners that means they can be bought in France, Germany or anywhere else in the EU (even if they need to be shipped). Of course, if we leave the EU and the free trade zone then we can make and sell over-powered vacuum cleaners. But, the Leave campaign seem to want to keep the UK within the European free trade area - in which case, no over-powered vacuum cleaners.

quote:
quote:
The only way to avoid those sort of restrictions is to close our borders entirely and trade with no one.
There are many countries that seem to manage it. I wonder what their secret is.
Which countries are you thinking of that trade with no one? North Korea, and ... ?

quote:
quote:
But, I challenge anyone to point to an example of UK legislation that was blocked by the EU, or because of EU opposition didn't even get to a white paper
Of course there won't be any such examples. Parliament is busy enough as it is, why on earth would any of them bother even starting to write a paper that they knew would be blocked?
As I said, examples of bills that never got formulated because they would be blocked by the EU. Anything that was proposed for a party election manifesto but didn't make the cut because it was recognised as unachievable because of EU regulations? If the EU is preventing Westminster from acting as a sovereign government there should be plenty of examples.

--------------------
All I want for Christmas is EU

Posts: 32189 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The problem is that as long as we have to abide by EU standards then we aren't allowed to make and sell overpowered vacuums at all. But if there are British companies that want to make them and British people who want to buy them then what has that got to do with anywhere else?


Why are we still talking about vacuum cleaners? the Directive is sensible, and any sensible government in the UK would restrict their sale as well. Only the daft British public could be hookwinked by the idea that they somehow need a totally overpowered and unnecessary cleaner. Nobody else thinks they're at all necessary.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10325 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If the UK makes a trade deal with Australia that means that Australian companies can ship their goods into the UK with reduced (or zero) import tariffs. But, we also have a free trade agreement with the EU. Therefore, those imported goods can be re-exported to the rest of the EU without incurring tariffs.

But those are two different transactions. If we want to export a widget to somewhere else in the EU, then why does it matter if said widget was made in Britain or bought by Britain from somewhere else?

quote:
A more reasonable analogy would be if you ran a restaurant, and had an arrangement with the local baker to supply all your bread at a 20% discount on condition that (subject to the baker meeting his end of the agreement by baking enough bread at a specified quality) the arrangement is exclusive. You've got a good deal - reduced price, locally baked bread with a guaranteed supply. The baker has a good deal - a guaranteed daily sale. But, it does mean that if you decide to buy your rolls from someone else because they're cheaper then your existing arrangement with the local baker is invalid, and he can now start to charge full price for what he does sell.
Yes. But if I've found a cheaper supplier then I'm still going to do it! Why would I want to stay locked into a deal that's no longer the best one for me?

quote:
quote:
The problem is that as long as we have to abide by EU standards then we aren't allowed to make and sell overpowered vacuums at all. But if there are British companies that want to make them and British people who want to buy them then what has that got to do with anywhere else?
Because we're in a free trade zone. By definition that means anyone in the zone can freely buy from anywhere else in the zone. If the UK sells over-powered vacuum cleaners that means they can be bought in France, Germany or anywhere else in the EU (even if they need to be shipped).
Which, in turn, means that if France, Germany or wherever doesn't like the idea of overpowered vacuums then we can't have them either. Which sucks (pun intended) for us, and is a good example of the restrictions EU membership puts on our freedom to buy and sell the things we want.

quote:
Which countries are you thinking of that trade with no one? North Korea, and ... ?
Lots of countries trade with whomever they want. The bulk of New Zealand's trade is with Australia, but NZ is still free to deal with other countries without asking the Aussies for permission.

quote:
As I said, examples of bills that never got formulated because they would be blocked by the EU. Anything that was proposed for a party election manifesto but didn't make the cut because it was recognised as unachievable because of EU regulations? If the EU is preventing Westminster from acting as a sovereign government there should be plenty of examples.
There probably are, but if they were never formulated or published then how the hell would I know about them?

I could speculate about all kinds of good, bad and ugly things various parties might want to do if it weren't for the EU, but that's all it would be - speculation.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29952 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

 - Posted      Profile for fletcher christian   Email fletcher christian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Posted by Marvin:
quote:

The problem is that as long as we have to abide by EU standards then we aren't allowed to make and sell overpowered vacuums at all. But if there are British companies that want to make them and British people who want to buy them then what has that got to do with anywhere else?

Let's break down the vacuum myth.

There is no ban on powerful vacuum cleaners.

There is a recommendation from Europe that vacuums are not energy wasters using old, inefficient motors (it covers a lot of other things too, but since we're talking about vacuum's I'll leave it at that).

There is a standardised labelling system at use throughout Europe to indicate to buyers which products are energy efficient and so encourage them to buy products which are more energy efficient. Old, wasteful models cannot avail of this labelling system.

UK manufacturers (what's left of them) supported this move whole heartedly. It was applied through UK legislation, operational at the national level. The UK could have (and still can) block or exempt this recommendation if it so desired. It didn't.


Many moons ago the same system was used for fridges and freezers and nobody complained. Essentially nobody complained because they used two thirds less electricity than before and they were cheaper to produce - it was a bonus for the manufacturer and seller and a double bonus for the buyer. It was a bonus too for the UK economy, for retailers and for the environment of the entire planet.

On the back of the vacuum argument, the straight banana nonsense and driving on the right etc, we have people citing these things as a reason to leave Europe. It's stupid, I know, but some see it as being of immense importance that they shouldn't have efficient energy saving vacuum's. And that's the rub. Every argument I've heard so far in regards to the leave campaign centres around insular selfishness. It's all about what 'we' get. There is no concept of being on this planet together with anyone else. This underlying concept of insular selfishness is shrouded in political, social and economic arguments that deliberately twist the truth for a different means. There's a lot of talk about sovereignty and democracy and as far as I can see, there is more to be lost in these two areas with a leave vote than there is with a remain vote.

--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

Posts: 5216 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
But if I've found a cheaper supplier then I'm still going to do it! Why would I want to stay locked into a deal that's no longer the best one for me?

Quality. Reliability of supply. The business relationship that means when you phone them up and say "I need another gross of buns by tonight", they don't laugh in your face.

You get what you pay for. The Brexit campaign is based on getting what we currently pay for, for nothing. They, and you, are wrong.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8921 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:

*if* he does manage to pull it off then it's another tick in the "lucky general" box

Nicely put. I hope he turns out to be lucky, not for his sake, but for the rest of us. But if he turns out to be unlucky, he'll manoeuvre without too much difficulty behind "the people have spoken, I am their servant". He doesn't need to resign. At least not straight away.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20933 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Why are we still talking about vacuum cleaners?

They're a proxy for the wider debate.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29952 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Why are we still talking about vacuum cleaners?

They're a proxy for the wider debate.
Marvin, have you forgotten that while you can draw from the general to the specific, you can't draw from the specific to the general.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24053 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

 - Posted      Profile for fletcher christian   Email fletcher christian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Posted by Sioni:
quote:

Marvin, have you forgotten that while you can draw from the general to the specific, you can't draw from the specific to the general.

Especially when you start with a specific myth.

--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

Posts: 5216 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If the UK makes a trade deal with Australia that means that Australian companies can ship their goods into the UK with reduced (or zero) import tariffs. But, we also have a free trade agreement with the EU. Therefore, those imported goods can be re-exported to the rest of the EU without incurring tariffs.

But those are two different transactions. If we want to export a widget to somewhere else in the EU, then why does it matter if said widget was made in Britain or bought by Britain from somewhere else?
It matters to people importing widgets elsewhere in the EU. How about if the boot was on the other foot? In the UK we import a lot of lamb from NZ, there are UK businesses that do good business importing lamb and reselling it to our supermarkets (and, supermarkets elsewhere in the EU). But, being outside the EU there is an import tariff charged on that lamb. What if France decided to cut a deal with NZ and then imported NZ lamb without charging a tariff? Supermarkets across the EU can now buy their NZ lamb from French importers for less. Good for the French importers, good for consumers (lamb costs fall), good for the NZ sheep farmers. Bad for the UK lamb importers who now go out of business, bad for UK sheep farmers who now have to compete with NZ lamb that is even cheaper than it was before. Do you not think it unreasonable that those in the UK who lose out if that happens to think that it does matter what someone else inside a free trade area does? Because trade affects everyone within a free trade area, trade deals need to be applied across the whole area, which in the case of Europe means that trade deals are negotiated by the EU on behalf of all members of the free trade area - even those who are not EU members and have no say in those negotiations.

quote:


quote:
A more reasonable analogy would be if you ran a restaurant, and had an arrangement with the local baker to supply all your bread at a 20% discount on condition that (subject to the baker meeting his end of the agreement by baking enough bread at a specified quality) the arrangement is exclusive. You've got a good deal - reduced price, locally baked bread with a guaranteed supply. The baker has a good deal - a guaranteed daily sale. But, it does mean that if you decide to buy your rolls from someone else because they're cheaper then your existing arrangement with the local baker is invalid, and he can now start to charge full price for what he does sell.
Yes. But if I've found a cheaper supplier then I'm still going to do it! Why would I want to stay locked into a deal that's no longer the best one for me?
Yes, of course you can switch supplier. Although there is more than just price in the decision to do so (there may be benefit to your business to be known to support local business, supporting local business contributes to the local economy and means people may have more money to spend in your restaurant, if you're seen to suddenly cancel your deal with the baker would that affect your chances of striking a good deal with the local wholesale fruit and veg merchant?).

But, to come back from the analogy, the Brexit campaign seems to want to break our trade deals with the EU (to open up trade with the Commonwealth in particular) but then expect the EU to agree to reinstate the same deal. It's like telling the baker "I can get rolls cheaper elsewhere. But, I still want the 20% discount on the cakes and sandwich bread." The baker has lost some of his guaranteed sales, and now knows that the rest is not as guaranteed as he thought - is that deal still as good for him? Of course not.

quote:
Which, in turn, means that if France, Germany or wherever doesn't like the idea of overpowered vacuums then we can't have them either. Which sucks (pun intended) for us, and is a good example of the restrictions EU membership puts on our freedom to buy and sell the things we want.
Except that isn't the way the EU works. If France and Germany want to ban overpowered vacuum cleaners then they need to convince all the other nations in the EU of the benefits of such a ban, and form a consensus that this is a good idea. If a nation is strongly opposed to such a ban then the EU gets into a stalemate and the ban doesn't come into force, or a compromise is reached (eg: the threshold for the power of vacuum cleaners is increased, so that the number of cleaners included is reduced). The whole of the EU structures are built around establishing consensus. Of course, for that to work it means that everyone should be involved. If one nation decides to sit out of the discussions establishing a consensus then they can't really complain when the consensus of everyone is isn't what they want. If an MEP has a seat on a fisheries committee he can't just take his pay and expenses but not turn up at the meetings, and then complain that the committee isn't doing what he wants.

quote:
I could speculate about all kinds of good, bad and ugly things various parties might want to do if it weren't for the EU, but that's all it would be - speculation.
It's good to get that admission. The supposed restrictions on UK sovereignty imposed by EU membership are just speculation.

[ 16. June 2016, 10:59: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]

--------------------
All I want for Christmas is EU

Posts: 32189 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
It's stupid, I know, but some see it as being of immense importance that they shouldn't have efficient energy saving vacuum's.

I couldn't give a fuck about the vacuums themselves. It's the principle that matters to me, and that principle is that if I want to buy something and someone else is willing to sell it to me then it shouldn't be up to some Brussels bureaucrat to tell us we can't.

quote:
And that's the rub. Every argument I've heard so far in regards to the leave campaign centres around insular selfishness. It's all about what 'we' get. There is no concept of being on this planet together with anyone else.
Oh boo hoo hoo, the perfect socialist paradise of everybody in the world working together for the good of all doesn't exist.

Get over it.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29952 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
It's stupid, I know, but some see it as being of immense importance that they shouldn't have efficient energy saving vacuum's.

I couldn't give a fuck about the vacuums themselves. It's the principle that matters to me, and that principle is that if I want to buy something and someone else is willing to sell it to me then it shouldn't be up to some Brussels bureaucrat to tell us we can't.
How far do you want to push that principle?

If a 12 year old want to buy some cheap cider, and someone is willing to sell it, should someone tell them they can't?

If you want to buy some crack cocaine, and someone is willing to sell it, should some police officer tell you you can't?

--------------------
All I want for Christmas is EU

Posts: 32189 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
[QUOTE]I couldn't give a fuck about the vacuums themselves. It's the principle that matters to me, and that principle is that if I want to buy something and someone else is willing to sell it to me then it shouldn't be up to some Brussels bureaucrat to tell us we can't.

Oh FFS. It was the British government who signed up for this. The one you vote for. Us. We said we shouldn't have stupidly powerful and inefficient vacuum cleaners, not Brussels.

If all your arguments are this stupid, myopic and vindictive, then ... sorry, but you're an idiot.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8921 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't follow your logic, Marvin. Heck, I work personally on "caveat emptor" (let the buyer beware) recognising ultimately that the responsibility for choosing is, in the end, mine. But I don't have the least problem in having the choice "seatbelts or no seatbelts" taken away from both manufacturers and me. There was excellent evidence and excellent social policy reasoning behind that restriction on my personal freedom.

Caveat emptor has always been qualified, been the subject of legislation, for social policy reasons. And to make those qualifications stick, there are legal and bureacratic mechanisms in place.

I can see you might not like the vacuum cleaner restrictions as an example of a particular restriction. But surely you don't insist on an absolute application of caveat emptor? If we come out of the EU, there will still be restrictions on caveat emptor applied by the UK government.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20933 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

 - Posted      Profile for fletcher christian   Email fletcher christian   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Posted by Marvin:
quote:

I couldn't give a fuck about the vacuums themselves. It's the principle that matters to me, and that principle is that if I want to buy something and someone else is willing to sell it to me then it shouldn't be up to some Brussels bureaucrat to tell us we can't.

Which Brussels bureaucrat would that be? I've yet to hear of this new European dictator who has overthrown the powers of Europe and gone over everyone else's head, including the UK government. More myths perhaps?

quote:

Oh boo hoo hoo, the perfect socialist paradise of everybody in the world working together for the good of all doesn't exist.

Get over it.

You're quite; it doesn't. But I'd much rather live in a world where people at least try to have concern for the planet and the people on it than live only for myself and my little insignificant country that builds a wall around itself and only ever thinks about what it can get for itself.

I know this debate is touching upon a constitutional crisis for the UK with those old hangovers of colonialism, earlier world domination and notions of empire and 'greatness', but really that world has well and truly gone. Perhaps you could try getting over that and start to see how the UK could be great without the need to dominate, control and subject. We are moving into a new era of partnership and I think the UK has a vital role on that. I'd be very sad if it couldn't see any way in which it could contribute.

--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

Posts: 5216 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266

 - Posted      Profile for Nightlamp   Email Nightlamp   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Which countries are you thinking of that trade with no one? North Korea, and ... ?
Lots of countries trade with whomever they want. The bulk of New Zealand's trade is with Australia, but NZ is still free to deal with other countries without asking the Aussies for permission.

Actually they are not, to get the mutual beneficial agreements they have to ask each others permission to deal with third party countries (hence this deal) When a country enters trade deals with another country they take on obligations & commitments which they may rescind but then of course the trade deals end to everyone's pain.

--------------------
I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
In the UK we import a lot of lamb from NZ, there are UK businesses that do good business importing lamb and reselling it to our supermarkets (and, supermarkets elsewhere in the EU). But, being outside the EU there is an import tariff charged on that lamb. What if France decided to cut a deal with NZ and then imported NZ lamb without charging a tariff? Supermarkets across the EU can now buy their NZ lamb from French importers for less. Good for the French importers, good for consumers (lamb costs fall), good for the NZ sheep farmers. Bad for the UK lamb importers who now go out of business, bad for UK sheep farmers who now have to compete with NZ lamb that is even cheaper than it was before.

Tough titties. That's business.

quote:
Do you not think it unreasonable that those in the UK who lose out if that happens to think that it does matter what someone else inside a free trade area does?
I think that if they can be put out of business so easily by a simple trade deal then they either need to improve their product, lower their prices or diversify their holdings. If I can get good quality lamb at a competitive price then I don't really care if it comes from New Zealand or Cumbria, and I certainly don't want to have to pay more just so that the Cumbrian shepherds can stay in business.

quote:
Yes, of course you can switch supplier. Although there is more than just price in the decision to do so (there may be benefit to your business to be known to support local business, supporting local business contributes to the local economy and means people may have more money to spend in your restaurant, if you're seen to suddenly cancel your deal with the baker would that affect your chances of striking a good deal with the local wholesale fruit and veg merchant?).
The thing with all those decisions you put in parentheses is that they're mine to make. If I think the saving on bread outweighs any bad publicity that might come from the deal then so be it.

quote:
But, to come back from the analogy, the Brexit campaign seems to want to break our trade deals with the EU (to open up trade with the Commonwealth in particular) but then expect the EU to agree to reinstate the same deal. It's like telling the baker "I can get rolls cheaper elsewhere. But, I still want the 20% discount on the cakes and sandwich bread." The baker has lost some of his guaranteed sales, and now knows that the rest is not as guaranteed as he thought - is that deal still as good for him? Of course not.
I guess it depends on how important the restaurant is to the baker's bottom line, and whether the baker thinks he can get by without any trade with it at all. If the baker needs to sell his cakes and sandwich bread to the restaurant in order to break even then he'll cut a deal.

quote:
Except that isn't the way the EU works. If France and Germany want to ban overpowered vacuum cleaners then they need to convince all the other nations in the EU of the benefits of such a ban, and form a consensus that this is a good idea.
Not a difficult proposition, since France and Germany have all the power in the EU anyway.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29952 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
How far do you want to push that principle?

If a 12 year old want to buy some cheap cider, and someone is willing to sell it, should someone tell them they can't?

If you want to buy some crack cocaine, and someone is willing to sell it, should some police officer tell you you can't?

That question is probably worthy of a separate thread. I'll happily follow to Purg if you agree.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29952 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I couldn't give a fuck about the vacuums themselves. It's the principle that matters to me, and that principle is that if I want to buy something and someone else is willing to sell it to me then it shouldn't be up to some Brussels bureaucrat to tell us we can't.

I would suggest you get a greater choice of things that you can buy or sell if you are in a free trade zone than if you are out of it.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7178 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
France and Germany have all the power in the EU anyway.

They have exactly 1/14th of the power. Which means 13/14ths of the power lies outside of France and Germany.

Do you actually believe this shit, or is this performance art?

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8921 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
France and Germany have all the power in the EU anyway.

They have exactly 1/14th of the power.
Assuming they agree on the matter at hand.

--------------------
All I want for Christmas is EU

Posts: 32189 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

 - Posted      Profile for mark_in_manchester   Email mark_in_manchester   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Tough titties. That's business.
Martin - don't mind me saying so, but don't you (like me) work in the public sector? Your and my whole working world is a mile away from the kind of testosterone trip you're describing, notwithstanding ham-fisted attempts to marketize(TM) higher education over the last 20 years. If Wallmart/ASDA bought your institution, your life would become more shit. Is a 'no it wouldn't' all you've got?
Posts: 1548 | Registered: Oct 2010  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
And that's the rub. Every argument I've heard so far in regards to the leave campaign centres around insular selfishness. It's all about what 'we' get. There is no concept of being on this planet together with anyone else.
Oh boo hoo hoo, the perfect socialist paradise of everybody in the world working together for the good of all doesn't exist.

Get over it.

Absolutely not - to believe it can't exist is to deny Christianity, its social teaching and the guidance of bishops in both the C of E and the RCC.

Perhaps you'd like the words 'thy kingdom come....on earth' removed from the Lord's prayer.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23075 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's a prayer, leo, not an assertion.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18147 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I think that if they can be put out of business so easily by a simple trade deal then they either need to improve their product, lower their prices or diversify their holdings. If I can get good quality lamb at a competitive price then I don't really care if it comes from New Zealand or Cumbria, and I certainly don't want to have to pay more just so that the Cumbrian shepherds can stay in business.

What you are basically arguing now is that tariffs and import barriers shouldn't exist at all. Which is a fine and respectable position. But, apart from the fact that it is as utopian as Socialist peace and love -

It is not what the Leave campaign are offering you! Plenty of Leave campaigners have explicitly stated they think tariffs are a price worth paying.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7178 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Also... I do find it odd having all this talk about the inability to create trade deals with Australia, when I know for certain that there are at least some trade deals between Australia and the EU.

Of course they are not on the same level as the whole free trade thing within the EU, but there are definitely some agreements on things like meat and wine, because I've drafted laws related to those agreements.

Such as... well, annual quotas for tariff-free export of goods to the EU. I believe the quota increases each year.

Just sayin'. And this is despite the fact that I have some sympathy and understanding for the Leave vote. Although complaining about bureaucrats in Brussels... bear in mind that you'd often just be trading them for a bureaucrat in London.

[ 16. June 2016, 13:08: Message edited by: orfeo ]

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18147 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
It is not what the Leave campaign are offering you! Plenty of Leave campaigners have explicitly stated they think tariffs are a price worth paying.

Moreover, tariffs are good for us to impose, but terrible for others to impose on us. The formidable British manufacturing sector, the one which the Tories have done everything in their power to sell off to foreign companies or shut down, will be able to flood the world with their reasonably-priced, tariff-free excellence.

Oh, wait... [Disappointed]

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8921 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891

 - Posted      Profile for The Phantom Flan Flinger   Author's homepage   Email The Phantom Flan Flinger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Oh boo hoo hoo, the perfect socialist paradise of everybody in the world working together for the good of all doesn't exist.

Get over it.

So that's it then, it doesn't exist, so we should all just look out for ourselves and fuck the rest.

What a great world to live in.

[ 16. June 2016, 13:43: Message edited by: The Phantom Flan Flinger ]

--------------------
http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/

Posts: 1008 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

 - Posted      Profile for Schroedinger's cat   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I want to post this here because a) it is mainly about exiters and b) I am sure the hosts don't want the foetid Glastonbury cess-pit that is this referendum from seeping it's putrid way across too many threads on the board.

I am ashamed to be British at the moment.

Irrespective of which side you are on in the decision (and many have made it very clear, including myself), this has been one of the most vile, unpleasant, deceitful, manipulative campaigns ever. And that is saying something after the last election campaign.

I read a leave pamphlet and even I can find clear mistakes and problems in it (apparently, by leaving the EU, our security will be improved because we will no longer be subject to the ECHR? I mean, where do I start?). I don't read them anymore, so that is the only one I can remember.

I once thought we were better than this. I thought our long history of parliament, of bringing democracy (of some sort) to other nations across the world would mean we have a clue as to how to conduct ourselves with at least a degree of respectability.

But apparently no. Our football supporters are less embarrassing than our politicians. Heck, out football teams are less embarrassing.

So to all of those in the spotlight in this campaign - Farage, Gove, Cameron, Osborne and the rest of you, FUCK YOU for being a total disgrace. FUCK YOU for having the morals that a nematode worm would be ashamed of. FUCK YOU for being such despicable, vile, obnoxious and rancid examples of humanity that you make me wonder about whether we are worth it. FUCK YOU ALL for making me ashamed to be British. I can cope with what we did in India, our role in the slave trade, our damaging imperialism and our 1970s football fans, but you make me utterly sick. And that pile of vomit would be more amenable than you are.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18684 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Tough titties. That's business.

No, it's just fucking unrealistic to think that you can impose such an order of things whether or not the EU existed or not.
Posts: 3877 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
this has been one of the most vile, unpleasant, deceitful, manipulative campaigns ever. And that is saying something after the last election campaign.

I read a leave pamphlet and even I can find clear mistakes and problems in it

Some of what Remain has produced has hardly been better.

A few months ago, when there was a Republican race on before it was Trumped, I made a comment on Facebook in response to one of those "lies told by the candidates" links to the effect of it looked like all the leading Republicans were confused and thought they were competing for the "Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire" award rather than to be a candidate for the White House. Sometimes I look at our referendum campaign and think there was a secret meeting where it was decided that rather than campaign on EU membership there should be a concerted effort to show-up the Republicans as rank amateurs at lies, smears, stupidity, personal slander and downright nastiness.

--------------------
All I want for Christmas is EU

Posts: 32189 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Although complaining about bureaucrats in Brussels... bear in mind that you'd often just be trading them for a bureaucrat in London.

Yes, but we have more control over the bureaucrats in London.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29952 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's a prayer, leo, not an assertion.

Why pray if God doesn't answer prayer?

Was not Jesus 'asserting' how to pray and what to pray for?

Perhaps he was deluded?

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23075 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's a prayer, leo, not an assertion.

Why pray if God doesn't answer prayer?

Why keep praying if He has already answered it?

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18147 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's a prayer, leo, not an assertion.

Why pray if God doesn't answer prayer?
God can bring His Kingdom any time He wants. Until He does, though, we appear to be on our own.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29952 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Although complaining about bureaucrats in Brussels... bear in mind that you'd often just be trading them for a bureaucrat in London.

Yes, but we have more control over the bureaucrats in London.
A charming belief, but is it borne out by the evidence?

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18147 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
On the evidence of Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister it's the bureaucrats in Whitehall who have the control.

--------------------
All I want for Christmas is EU

Posts: 32189 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

 - Posted      Profile for orfeo   Author's homepage   Email orfeo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And I thought we'd established that Rupert Murdoch was in charge of much of the English-speaking world.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18147 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And I thought we'd established that Rupert Murdoch was in charge of much of the English-speaking world.

Nope, George Soros. He made a billion dollars on Black Wednesday back in 1992 and given the uncertainty now, I'm sure he is rubbing his hands at the possibility of a leave vote.

*Other avaricious market-makers are available.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24053 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Lizards. Lizards everywhere.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8921 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Although complaining about bureaucrats in Brussels... bear in mind that you'd often just be trading them for a bureaucrat in London.

Yes, but we have more control over the bureaucrats in London.
A charming belief, but is it borne out by the evidence?
In as much as bureaucrats are controlled by government and government is controlled by the people, yes.

If one or both of those things is not true then our problems go way beyond membership (or not) of the EU.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29952 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

 - Posted      Profile for Schroedinger's cat   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
this has been one of the most vile, unpleasant, deceitful, manipulative campaigns ever. And that is saying something after the last election campaign.

I read a leave pamphlet and even I can find clear mistakes and problems in it

Some of what Remain has produced has hardly been better.

I don't doubt this. I don't bother reading them, and one stuck out. My rant is about both sides, who are as despicable as each other.

--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18684 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  ...  27  28  29 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools