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Source: (consider it) Thread: Whom shall we send? The Vocations Thread
Piglet
Islander
# 11803

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Prayers ascending for you, Iamchristian. [Votive]

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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Pomona, FYI your PM inbox is full!!

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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/

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Pomona
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Whoops, thanks!

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Pomona
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I didn't get the job due to not having enough experience. Given that this was a Ministerial Experience Scheme, this is a bit galling. I do feel that as a low-income person, the church doesn't appreciate that working for the church for free is not an affordable option.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Albertus
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Typical bit of crap that is a cover for 'your face doesn't fit, you've not been socialised in the way that we have, but of course we'd never say that not least because we're so unreflective that we don't acknowledge it ourselves'. Rather like a lot of the rest of the discernment process, actually.
Has this CEMES thing completely taken over from the old-style pastoral assistant stuff whereby your DDO would know of parishes who were looking for someone for a year or so on a board + lodging + pocket money basis? If not, any chance of getting anything that way?

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Pomona
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CEMES is specifically funded by Young Vocations and is designed to give younger potential ordinands some parish experience. Churches do still advertise for pastoral assistant roles - I tried to apply for one in Borough but unfortunately my laptop died in the middle of applying so I missed the deadline. With the Southwark CEMES it seems like there was a bit of divided opinion regarding my appointment, the DDO seemed very encouraging and positive so I might email her for some feedback.

An issue is that I am in Winchester diocese - I am single and happy to abide by Issues etc, but I'm still a lefty Anglo-Catholic with monastic tendencies in a strongly conservative evangelical area. I will contact my DDO in a few days about it though (although I'm disappointed I'm anxious to not appear like I'm bitterly causing trouble, and also just want to decompress a bit).

At the moment though I'm looking for a spot of retreat with a religious community before going further.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Albertus
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That sounds very wise. Your DDO will expect you to get back to her to talk about where to go next.
Does remind me though of my being told that they didn't want to take my exploration forward until I had a bit more theological education:

Um, hello? hello? You do realise that if I were to be accepted you would be sending me to a bleeding theological college for three years? [brick wall]

[ 27. May 2015, 18:24: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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Pomona
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I also have quite a lot of pastoral experience, just not in a parish church context. Trying to explain that this is surely a transferable skill was a bit frustrating.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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moonfruit
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Pomona, that all sounds very frustrating. [Votive]

I hope you're able to find some retreat time soon - and that further conversations with your DDO are useful.

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All I know is that you came and made beauty from my mess.

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Dormouse

Glis glis – Ship's rodent
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I am about to have my Licence as a Lay Reader "re-activated" if two Bishops who don't get on can get their acts together (I'm attending an Episcopal church, but my License is Anglican...) While I have been preaching already it will be nice to be made "official" again - I will feel like I can wear my cassock (currently very cat furry as it was discvered to be a good bed in the depths of winter!) and stole again.

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What are you doing for Lent?
40 days, 40 reflections, 40 acts of generosity. Join the #40acts challenge for #Lent and let's start a movement. www.40acts.org.uk

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Masha
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I remember this thread fondly from my vocational wanderings. I am about to finish my middle year at theological college, literally, I submitted my final essay ten minutes ago and there is one viva between me and my degree.

Onto another one in September, whilst preparing to, you know, potentially be ordained.I'm not expecting next year's workload to be light.

Prayers for all currently going 'through the system'.

Masha

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Raptor Eye
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Dormouse, I hope that licence arrives soon, and that your ministry is all God wants it to be, even though it'll put the cat's bed in jeopardy.

Masha, well done, another assignment under your belt! It's all a bit daunting when the end is in sight, but this is what God has called you to, and God will see you through. You already knew that, but it's worth holding on to.

May you both know God's closeness and blessings as you continue on the way.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Jante
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Great to hear how things are going Masha
and I expect you will also be in discussions about where next at the end of college! All exciting stuff as I remember well. Prayers please as I start to look to the end of Curacy [Ultra confused]

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My blog http://vicarfactorycalling.blogspot.com/

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Pomona
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I have found an available placement in a CoE church that is Not My Tradition (very much Not My Tradition), as an intern student worker. I've emailed and asked whether my own tradition would be a barrier, they've said no and I'm welcome to apply.

However I'm wondering whether it's better to go for this position, or secular work with parish experience within my own regular place of worship as and when I can fit it in?

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Piglet
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If you think you can cope with how different it is from your usual tradition, then I'd say go for it - it'll show that you're prepared to gain experience outside your comfort zone.

Having said that, if it's so far outside your comfort zone that it makes you miserable, then perhaps not.

[Votive] that you make the right decision.

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
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I agree with Piglet and I remember, some years ago now, this discussion happening before. I think doing stuff outside your own tradition can be an excellent thing.

This is said by a Quaker who regularly attends Catholic Mass.

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Albertus
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Yes, I'd agree with piglet and WW. It will also, I suspect, help if / when you get to BAP (or whatever they call it nowadays) because it will give you something to reflect on and talk about. I think there needs to be some kind of fit- presumably, knowing you, this is neither some headship ConEvo +Maidstone outfit nor some gin-and-lace wear a bucket on your head if the Holy Father says so and please no women in the sanctuary because they might be bleeding shack. But anywhere broadly within the range of what is recognisably CofE could be good experience. Important thing I think is to be open and reflective.

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*Leon*
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Pomona: Also agree with Piglet et al. There's a lot of process to look out for people who only know their own church/tradition and will be shocked when they're expected to treat the rest of the CofE as if they're proper Christians. Being able to conclusively prove you aren't such a person will be very useful. Also, as you've already discovered, there's a tendency to ignore any actually-relevant experience gained in a secular context, so gaining some churchy experience is certainly valuable.

(Although I suspect that what happened with your previous placement application is that you weren't the candidate who was already lined up for the job, and they retrospectively invented the reasons why you didn't get the job)

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Piglet
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Just to add to what I said earlier - if it's only a placement, then it isn't for ever, and you'll still have your original place to go back to.

Also, if you're within hailing distance of a cathedral, you can always go to the odd weekday Evensong, just to clear your head. [Smile]

There was a late gentleman of our acquaintance whose family were stalwarts of the local Baptist church (his wife conducted the choir, and I think he was a deacon) who also used to attend the early-morning Eucharist at the local Episcopal church, and no-one batted an eyelid.

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Zacchaeus
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It never harms to be able to show open mindedness and the ability to work across churchmanship boundaries and to be able to work with others of different traditions.

It also shows that you have seriously considered why you are what you are and that you are not just sticking to something out of not wanting to change or lack of imagination.

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Pomona
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Thanks everyone. Luckily I also have some references from this tradition/more like this tradition which should help. Also it is indeed in the same town/city as a cathedral! And now everyone is playing Guess The Town Or City [Big Grin] And no Albertus, it is neither of those extremes, though it is quite far in the Vineyard-y direction. I can cope with that though, I think? I have a lot of charismatic friends so I know some of the language.

*Leon* actually the previous placement had only three of us applying for three places, so there wasn't anyone lined up for my place.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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*Leon*
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:

*Leon* actually the previous placement had only three of us applying for three places, so there wasn't anyone lined up for my place.

Then I'm outraged!
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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Thanks everyone. Luckily I also have some references from this tradition/more like this tradition which should help. Also it is indeed in the same town/city as a cathedral! And now everyone is playing Guess The Town Or City [Big Grin] And no Albertus, it is neither of those extremes, though it is quite far in the Vineyard-y direction. I can cope with that though, I think? I have a lot of charismatic friends so I know some of the language.
..

Sounds like it might turn out to be a very fruitful and exciting opportunity. Go for it!

[ 03. June 2015, 10:29: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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Pomona
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OK, asked around to try and work out how to phrase my pastoral experience with LGBT Christian youth. Turns out that this church is conservative regarding sexuality to the extent that I may not be able to be out. Not quite sure how to phrase things?

Lots of [Votive] please....

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Albertus
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Right, this is a reply off the top of my head so it may not be good advice, but what have you got to lose by being open about who you are? You might not get the job, but then you haven't got it now, and it could leave you free for another post somewhere else. It wouldn't be fair to them to be smuggling your sexuality in, as it were, and it would be pretty rough for you too having to be constantly on your guard for a year. What about (i) asking your DDO how to handle it (does she know about your sexuality?) and/or (ii) speaking informally to the vicar of the parish, explaining your situation, saying that of course you understand that some in the congregation might find it difficult to handle but would s/he still consider an application from you now that s/he knows who you are?
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Pomona
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I turned it over to my Diverse Church friends and ended up submitting the application - which mentions involvement in Diverse Church but only that it's pastoral support for young Christians, which is true - with a view to bringing the sexuality issue up at interview/in person. I feel much more comfortable with my ability to explain it in a conservative-friendly way in person! I'm happy to submit to Issues which, as far as I can gather, would be the stance of this church.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Albertus
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That sounds very sensible. Hope you get the interview and, if it feels right for you, the job.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Rosa Gallica officinalis
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Many years ago I began posting on the predecessor of this thread, and have read and prayed through it regularly ever since. On Sunday I am being collated and inducted as vicar of three parishes in mid-Wales. [Yipee]

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Come for tea, come for tea, my people.

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Raptor Eye
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[Axe murder] That's excellent news, Rosa Gallica, congratulations!

[Votive] For Sunday, and for your future ministry. May God bless you richly.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
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Lovely to hear, Rosa Gallica.

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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.

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Piglet
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Congratulations, RGO, and all the best in your new parishes. [Yipee]

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
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Yes indeed, congratulations.

[Yipee]

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Evensong
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quote:
Do NOT burst out laughing when someone tells you you're not authorised to preach a sermon because you're female. The uproarious laughter may discombobulate the neighbouring tables in the cafe.
- "The Ordinand's Rule Book. Pg 41, Rule # 774."

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a theological scrapbook

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
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Brilliant news Rosa Gallica

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Carys

Ship's Celticist
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I didn't get the job due to not having enough experience. Given that this was a Ministerial Experience Scheme, this is a bit galling. I do feel that as a low-income person, the church doesn't appreciate that working for the church for free is not an affordable option.

Ah I remember the not getting LPA posts because I didn't have the experience thing. But that's the whole ... point, I'm trying to get experience. I was hoping the more centralised schemes would obviate these problems...

Carys
(Whose own convoluted discernment process is on hold due to bereavement, which makes sense because grief is hard, but is also frustrating, because it's been long winded enough already. On the plus side there's some interesting stuff going on here, including diocesan synod)

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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise

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Evensong
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Started a Hell thread for aspiring ministers btw. Plenty of things you learn perdy darn fast in the process. No doubt plenty of you could contribute. [Big Grin]

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a theological scrapbook

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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Well, things seem to be going "well". DDO wants to send me for a BAP before the end of the year, so is setting up a meeting with an Examining Chaplain, and if that goes well the area Bishop.

The downside to this is that I now have "the form" to fill in. For those who have been through this, how much did you write for each section? I wrote really quite extensive reflections for my DDO on the criteria for selection, so have plenty of material I've already written which I can draw on, but I have way, way too much material!

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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/

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Pomona
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I wasn't shortlisted for the charismatic evo job, which is sort of fair enough really, but I would quite like someone to employ me (also looking for a job in the secular realm)! Actually I would love to go and do some alongsiding with a religious community but I need to have some kind of savings/income for that for paying for my prescriptions and so on.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Albertus
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Come and do some alongsiding in a community in Wales, then! Free prescriptions here. Mind you, not many communities to choose from. This place(basically RC but seem to sit pretty light as to denomination) has some job vacancies going, tho' not sure what level of experience/ background they're looking for. Or there are these people, not that I've been there.
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tessaB
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Nearly at the end of my first year of LLM training! Today was a day of 'firsts'. My first assessed sermon, the first time I preached at the big church, first time I preached twice in one day (and two different sermons) and the first time I acted as a communion assistant! An exhausting day but oh boy I really enjoyed it. Confirmed me in what I am seeking to do.
Prayers for all those still seeking [Votive]

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tessaB
eating chocolate to the glory of God
Holiday cottage near Rye

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3rdFooter
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quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Well, things seem to be going "well". DDO wants to send me for a BAP before the end of the year, so is setting up a meeting with an Examining Chaplain, and if that goes well the area Bishop.

The downside to this is that I now have "the form" to fill in. For those who have been through this, how much did you write for each section? I wrote really quite extensive reflections for my DDO on the criteria for selection, so have plenty of material I've already written which I can draw on, but I have way, way too much material!

Remember rule number one: Answer the question.
It is easy to drift to stuff that you think you want to say but on reflection, is only peripherally connected to what was asked.

Rule two: Be brutal. Find one, maybe two, really concrete examples or illustrations, then leave it at that. The assessors don't need to see all your great ideas and experiences. They want enough to show where your motivation and heart are.

Once you get to form-filling, I think you are more in a process than being open to the Holy Spirit. You are jumping hoops rather than preparing a sermon. Approach it in this way and it may be easier to filter your material.

Enjoy your BAP. Treat it like a retreat.

[Votive]

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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom

Posts: 602 | From: outskirts of Babylon | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483

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Thanks 3rdfooter. I guess the issue I've had is that the Criteria for Selection are so detailed, with so many sub-points, but the BAP registration form asks questions that only seem to focus on parts of the Criteria.

The form would look very different if I do it with an eye on the Criteria, or without taking them into account at all!

Ah well, it'll come together eventually.

While I'm on here, a happy Petertide to everyone.

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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/

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*Leon*
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# 3377

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iamachristian...:

I'd suggest very strongly taking the criteria into account.

I haven't seen the form for some years, but in my day the questions were actually semi-disguised attempts to ask 'explain why you fulfil criteria one, explain why you fulfil criteria two' etc.

It's worth remembering, the job of the advisers is to determine whether you fulfil the criteria and write a long report justifying their decision with quotes from you or your references. The form is only actually useful insofar as it helps them do that. If you can provide a load of those quotes in the form, your interviewers will start off in a good mood as they know they've got less work to do in the interview.

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recklessrat
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# 17243

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Has anyone done the Mission Shaped Ministry course? I'm thinking of starting it in September...

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stay simple, remain whole

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Laxton's Superba
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# 228

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Yes, I have just finished it. I really enjoyed it. There is a lot of material and they say at every meeting that you will never use it all, but can use it as a stepping-stone for your own reading and thinking. I most enjoyed being with people from other denominations, and some from Anglican churches totally different to mine, hearing about all the things they were involved with, and having my preconceptions about what "mission" is totally transformed. [Smile]
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recklessrat
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Thanks LS [Smile]

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stay simple, remain whole

Posts: 80 | From: The Shires | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged
iamchristianhearmeroar
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# 15483

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Well, I'm at one of those stages of the discernment process where I should probably be asking you all for your prayers.

I've filled in and sent in (to the diocese) my BAP Registration Form, have a meeting with an Examining Chaplain this weekend and then with the Suffragan Bishop after the following weekend. They will decide between them whether the diocese will sponsor me for a BAP.

Any advice gratefully received!

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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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No advice from me except to hold lightly to it all - and lots of upholding from over here.

eta: and to say that any answer is a door to a way forward - in the dim and distant past when it was still ACCM I got a not yet which saddened me at the time but really it was a very wise decision and it allowed me to move forward and explore more of myself and come to [be led to?] other goals.

[ 30. July 2015, 13:55: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Piglet
Islander
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Prayers from over here too, Iamchristian, whatever the outcome may be.

[Votive]

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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moonfruit
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# 15818

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Praying for you, iamchristian [Votive]

I'm currently working on an essay about the Nicene Creed for my DDO - it's rather invigorating to do something so different, actually. I next see the DDO in a couple of weeks, and I'm somewhat apprehensive - she's of the opinion that I have Personal Issues to deal with before I can go much further (and I completely agree with her) - I'm committed to working on my own Stuff, but at the same time I don't want to let go of the work with the DDO entirely either. It's a definite case of having to take a deep breath and really trust God.

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All I know is that you came and made beauty from my mess.

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