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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
Ratratrat
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Hello all. Quick question. Listening to St Thomas Fifth Avenue webcasts and noticed that at Evensong, the Apostles' Creed is chanted. As a CoE churchgoer and regular cathedral Evensong attendee, I'd never encountered the practice before. Is this a particular American practice?
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Bishops Finger
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I doubt if it's common practice anywhere nowadays (as indeed Evensong, at least in the UK, is not [Disappointed] ), but we did use to chant (or, more accurately, monotone) the Creed at The Tin Tabernacle Of My Yoof (50+ years ago... [Ultra confused] ).

John Merbecke, better known for his setting of the 1549 Communion Service, did also write music for the other services:

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Merbecke/Merbecke.htm

It seems that Merbecke's settings fell into disuse quite quickly, until revived in the 19thC, so it's probably impossible to tell to what extent they 'caught on' back in 1549.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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TomM
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Lay folk focus on secular, not on church.

One could say:

quote:
They are to serve the community in which they are set, bringing to the Church the needs and hopes of all the people. They are to work with their fellow members in searching out the poor and the weak, the sick and lonely and those who are oppressed and powerless, reaching into the forgotten corners of the world, the at the love of God may be made visible.
Oh, hang on. That omits the sentence that tells me who 'they' are in that... deacons.

(It's from the Common Worship Ordinal).

At the time when CW was written, the C of E had no clear theology of the diaconate - it still doesn't.
Yes. But we have even less of a theology of Reader ministry.
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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Lay folk focus on secular, not on church.

Meaning what, in this context?
Seeing one's secular work as one's chief vocation. Preaching and teaching in church should reflect thid.

Furthermore, the focal ministry of Readers is teaching and preaching. That of the diaonate is service, pastoral care.

Right, now we're getting somewhere. Preaching and teaching.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Ratratrat:
Hello all. Quick question. Listening to St Thomas Fifth Avenue webcasts and noticed that at Evensong, the Apostles' Creed is chanted. As a CoE churchgoer and regular cathedral Evensong attendee, I'd never encountered the practice before. Is this a particular American practice?

used to be common in England

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Spike

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# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Furthermore, the focal ministry of Readers is teaching and preaching. That of the diaonate is service, pastoral care.

Well yes, I suppose so, but they overlap. Most Readers of my acquaintance are very active in service and pastoral care and every deacon I've ever encountered has had a very active preaching and teaching role.

[ 10. January 2017, 19:26: Message edited by: Spike ]

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Bishops Finger
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Same here, and most Readers of my acquaintance would probably concur. Opportunities for leading Morning/Evening Prayer, and for preaching, are somewhat less now than they used to be, given the now-common 'one service Sunday'!

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Furthermore, the focal ministry of Readers is teaching and preaching. That of the diaonate is service, pastoral care.

Well yes, I suppose so, but they overlap. Most Readers of my acquaintance are very active in service and pastoral care and every deacon I've ever encountered has had a very active preaching and teaching role.
Pastoral work isn’t in the original license for a Reader though it appears in some dioceses’ verions.

I don’t regard myself as gifted in this fiend, though I do give spiritual direction which could be considered to be a specialised form of it.

Different people bring different gifts to Readership and the church should beware narrowing them down by trying to give a label and job description to every minister.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Spike

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Do you do funerals? Surely that's pastoral.

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Bishops Finger
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Lay Readers in this Diocese can elect (as I did) to go for further training, if they wish, to allow them to take funerals. One's licence is then suitably endorsed by the Bishop.

It is indeed important pastoral work, coupled with the liturgical aspect as well, of course, and the need (for the sake of all concerned) to do a good job.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Do you do funerals? Surely that's pastoral.

Yes - never thought of that but you're quite right.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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KevinL
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quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Two more, if I may:

a) In many Anglican churches the Gospel is taken into the centre of the church to be read. Why is this?

b) What expenses are Lay Readers supposed to claim in the CoE? Would it include mileage for all services they take, or would their home church be exempt? (I know that isn't liturgical, but it is ecclesiastical, and I'm hoping someone will know.)

Not an answer, but an opinion regarding a)
The rubrics of the TEC BCP are clear that all the lessons (Gospel included) and the sermon are to be delivered from the same pulpit/lectern/ambo. And yet --- at about the same time as this document was published the so-called 'Gospel procession' began to become popular throughout TEC, high, low or muddle. It can sometimes become quite ludicrous, as when all those attending are sitting near the front of the nave, and the procession passes them by to go half-way to the west doors. (I've seen this happen on many occasions.) It is distinctly UNedifying, IMNSHO!

Of b), I know not.

Correct me if I am missing something, because TEC "rubrics" are confusing, but I think reading the Gospel from the "midst of the congregation" is explicitly contemplated and permitted.

"It is desirable that the Lessons be read from a lectern or pulpit, and that
the Gospel be read from the same lectern, or from the pulpit, or from the
midst of the congregation. It is desirable that the Lessons and the Gospel be
read from a book or books of appropriate size and dignity."

cf. pg. 406, "Additional Directions"

[ 21. January 2017, 18:32: Message edited by: KevinL ]

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Enoch
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I'm not aware of any, and am fairly sure our rubrics don't deal with this point. There are quite a lot of things they do cover, but this isn't the sort of thing on which they are likely to prescribe.

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georgiaboy
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You are quite correct; my failure to re-read the 'Addl Directions'!

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You can't retire from a calling.

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Aravis
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We have three Readers now and our vicar sensibly encourages us to play to our strengths. I stick with preaching (and organ playing) and avoid all pastoral duties, not because I couldn't do them but because there would be a lot too much of an overlap with work; I'm a therapist in social services, and my area includes my parish, so confidentiality is already a bit of a minefield.
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iamchristianhearmeroar
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I know there has been a thread on this in the past, but I wonder if I could take the ship's view on something. I'm starting at Westcott House this September and want to buy a cassock before I go. Where do people recommend in the UK? Are J&M still the best combination of cost and quality? What about for other vestments, eg alb or surplice? J&M or elsewhere?

--------------------
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leo
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J & M are brilliant - but beware putting your credit card details online to them - mine was scammed by a 3rd party and J & M didn't seem unduly concerned.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Baptist Trainfan
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I had a Preaching Gown made for me by J&M about 10 years ago; it was reasonably priced and is still in excellent condition. It has been machine-washed a few times, too!

[ 27. January 2017, 17:29: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Bishops Finger
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How very seemly, Pastor! Preaching bands to go with it as well, I presume?

I know this is from a different firm, but they do look good...

http://www.wippell.com/s-21-preaching-gowns.aspx

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Basilica
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J&M are good value for money, if by that you mean that you get a decent quality for a relatively low price. In my view, Wippells are equally good value for money: though you pay more, you get a better product. (Words cannot say how much I love the fly front on my cassock.)

If you're going to be spending a lot of time in your cassock (unlikely at Westcott -- as I understand it cassocks were virtually banned in the not-too-distant past as "divisive") it might be worth an extra hundred quid or so for a high-quality one.

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BroJames
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My J & M wool gabardine cassock is still in good condition 26 years on.
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Bishops Finger
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I made the mistake of buying a cheapo double-breasted cassock from a small firm I will not name. Within a couple of months, all the buttons had come loose or fallen off, and the lining of one sleeve was coming adrift!

Fortunately, Our Place's multi-talented Auntie J. (now promoted to glory) came to the rescue, and my cassock was soon in far better nick than when new. It is still in good nick five years on, though not worn much in the past year.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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Thanks all. Loads of recommendations for J&M from clergy and ordinand friends too, so think I'll probably go with them. Now the ridiculous range of options : what material, how many pleats, how many buttons, what shape collar, what collar gap, cuffs, oversleeves, Cape, cincture? Oysh!

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
If you're going to be spending a lot of time in your cassock (unlikely at Westcott -- as I understand it cassocks were virtually banned in the not-too-distant past as "divisive") it might be worth an extra hundred quid or so for a high-quality one.

From the time I've spent there, the only time I've seen people in cassocks is when serving.

Interestingly, J&M are relatively expensive for things like albs and surplices. Watts and co are cheaper! Would love a Watts and co cassock, but their made to measure is very expensive. Will have to make do with one of their albs instead...

--------------------
My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/

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L'organist
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Now is not the time to be thinking about cost since this is a purchase of essential kit. Really you need TWO cassocks: one heavyweight for winter and a lightweight for summer and for when you need to pack light; as a bonus a lightweight cassock should be washable too, so you cut down on dry-cleaning bills.

I'd recommend Croft Design: the quality of sewing is excellent and they have a good range of fabrics.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Rosa Gallica officinalis
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Alternatively get yourself a cheaper lightweight cassock for college & invest in a heavyweight woollen one when you get your pre-ordination robes & vestments grant. Your preferences about style may well change while you're at college.

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Come for tea, come for tea, my people.

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis:
...pre-ordination robes & vestments grant.

Is that standard in the U.K.? I never heard of it in the U.S., but I love it! Around here, newly ordained deacons get one hand-made stole and that's it.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Bishops Finger
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Yes, I believe it is standard practice in the C of E.

Lay Readers, OTOH, have to shell out their own £££, although the Blue Scarf is presented to new Readers at their licensing.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Albertus
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Our parish- CinW- paid for our latest Reader's cassock and surplice, and I had the impression that was standard practice.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Bishops Finger
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Good for them! I've not heard of it being done for Readers as a general practice, though. Mind you, it's ermmmmm years since I was licensed, so things may have changed.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Thanks all. Loads of recommendations for J&M from clergy and ordinand friends too, so think I'll probably go with them. Now the ridiculous range of options : what material, how many pleats, how many buttons, what shape collar, what collar gap, cuffs, oversleeves, Cape, cincture? Oysh!
*snip*

First, you needn't buy everything at once, so you can stock up as legacies come your way. I would suggest, as have others, two cassocks, light-weight for summer, and heavy-weight for winter. To be mischievous, you can have one as Latin, and the other as Sarum/double-breasted. Collar gap will depend on whether or not you wear a shirt with clerical collar. Cincture and cape for the Latin, and cincture for the Sarum (unless you want to do a *name of bishop redacted* and have a vow-of-poverty belt). Cuffs, I am told, are good for sermon notes and can even take a cellphone with a bit of velcro to hold it in place.

You're better off to invest in a good-quality garment if you can, as the per-wearing cost will amortize nicely for you, and as a well-tailored garment can be more easily let out as Spiritual Maturity comes to be reflected in your waistline.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Our parish- CinW- paid for our latest Reader's cassock and surplice, and I had the impression that was standard practice.

In this diocese, it's compulsory

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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Thanks again all. Messrs Gammarelli are in town next week so thought it would be rude not to pay them a visit!

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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/

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Spike

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Our parish- CinW- paid for our latest Reader's cassock and surplice, and I had the impression that was standard practice.

In this diocese, it's compulsory
I don't think it's compulsory in my diocese, but any parish that didn't pay for its Readers robes would get glared at very sternly by the PTB

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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gog
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quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
I'm starting at Westcott House this September and want to buy a cassock before I go. Where do people recommend in the UK? Are J&M still the best combination of cost and quality? What about for other vestments, eg alb or surplice? J&M or elsewhere?

One thing to check, do you need one before you go. I know where I trained we had a wardrobe full of cassocks to borrow for when they where needed, and this in turn let us find the style and form that suited us best before we spent money on them.
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by gog:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
I'm starting at Westcott House this September and want to buy a cassock before I go. Where do people recommend in the UK? Are J&M still the best combination of cost and quality? What about for other vestments, eg alb or surplice? J&M or elsewhere?

One thing to check, do you need one before you go? I know where I trained we had a wardrobe full of cassocks to borrow for when they where needed, and this in turn let us find the style and form that suited us best before we spent money on them.
Very good point. Has Westcott House said you need to get one? Or do you just like the idea of wandering around in one?

I would imagine that unless the college expects you all to wear them the way Etonians wear tail coats or waitresses little aprons, most people don't acquire one until they are about to be ordained at the end of the course.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Rosa Gallica officinalis
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis:
...pre-ordination robes & vestments grant.

Is that standard in the U.K.? I never heard of it in the U.S., but I love it! Around here, newly ordained deacons get one hand-made stole and that's it.
Yes, most dioceses give a grant (I think it's about £1000) at ordination- but don't forget stipends are comparatively lower over here.

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Come for tea, come for tea, my people.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Around here, newly ordained deacons get one hand-made stole and that's it.

Handmade? Wouldn't one normally wear the stole that goes with the chasuble or dalmatic in the color of the day?
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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Around here, newly ordained deacons get one hand-made stole and that's it.

Handmade? Wouldn't one normally wear the stole that goes with the chasuble or dalmatic in the color of the day?
Our Deacons receive the stoles as they're ordained, and dalmatics are not worn. In fact, very few churches around here use dalmatics except for special occasions.

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by gog:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
I'm starting at Westcott House this September and want to buy a cassock before I go. Where do people recommend in the UK? Are J&M still the best combination of cost and quality? What about for other vestments, eg alb or surplice? J&M or elsewhere?

One thing to check, do you need one before you go? I know where I trained we had a wardrobe full of cassocks to borrow for when they where needed, and this in turn let us find the style and form that suited us best before we spent money on them.
Very good point. Has Westcott House said you need to get one? Or do you just like the idea of wandering around in one?

I would imagine that unless the college expects you all to wear them the way Etonians wear tail coats or waitresses little aprons, most people don't acquire one until they are about to be ordained at the end of the course.

I've been told that either a cassock and white alb or white cassock alb (no thanks, for various reasons) is needed for serving in college. In answer to gog's question, I could probably get by with borrowing stuff, but I've been offered these as a gift and I intend to take up the offer! I'm also tall and fat and would like something that actually fits...

Back to Enoch, I don't think wandering around in cassocks is encouraged, even at Westcott House!

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georgiaboy
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Smoke from Yesterday:

Just before our Ash Wednesday Abbatial Mass, the Choirmaster was griping that incense was being prepared, 'and it's not a feast day.' says he.

I said 'What about for blessing the ashes?' 'Just holy water.'

I shut up, as I didn't want to argue with my boss, but it seemed to me that he should have known that incense doesn't primarily signify 'festivity,' but rather 'hallowing' as of the sacrifice. His line of thought seemed more like a MOTR Episcopalian idea of 'something pretty to dress up the service.'

Your thoughts?

I'm not going to argue the point with him, but I still think I'm right!

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Bishops Finger
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And so you are.

IJ

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Gee D
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Dare I say it, but detail of the liturgy to be followed is not a matter for the Choirmaster (or Organist for that matter) but for the rector/parish priest/ senior minister/pastor.

[ 02. March 2017, 20:04: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Hooker's Trick

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quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
'and it's not a feast day.' says he.

By that logic one would surely never cense the coffin a funeral?

Even if one trades in the 'funeral as celebration of life' currency, it's still curely not a festal occasion.

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moonlitdoor
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# 11707

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I have two questions arising from the service I attended this morning. It was at the church of St Michael and all angels, West Croydon.

The first concerns crosses. I am familiar with a cross being carried in at the front of the choir, servers, and priests etc as they enter. In this case there were two crosses however, one at the front of the group and a second one just ahead of the priest. At the end of the service, one cross left with the servers and priest, who exited rapidly, being gone by the time the first verse of the last hymn ended. The choir remained in their place throughout the hymn, then left in silence with the other cross. What if anything was the significance of this ?

The other question is about incense. When I have seen it used before, the person carrying it has entered swinging it gently on the way up to the sanctuary. In this case however it was carried still by the person's side, as it apparently was not lit. He took it up to the altar, where it was lit and then used.

[ 26. March 2017, 17:48: Message edited by: moonlitdoor ]

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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai

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Bishops Finger
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I can't answer your query about crosses, as we don't usually carry one at Our Place (being short-staffed!), but the use of two does seem a bit unusual. Doubtless Anne Expert will be along soon...

As regards the incense, I suspect that the charcoal was in fact already alight as the thurible was carried in, as it does take a few minutes for the charcoal to fully ignite. I wonder, therefore, if the thurifer was a bit late in getting things ready, and, rather than delay the start of the service, they decided to begin promptly, and worry about the incense when they reached the altar.

My tuppence-worth...

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Brenda Clough
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(not an answer but simply inspired by your Q) I went to a church in Northern Virginia for an ordination, and they had a thurifer who seems to have learned his moves from Michael Jackson. He swung that thing in a wide horizontal circle over the heads of the congregation, to the full length of the chain. All our jaws were dropped open; that was a church which knew it had been censed.

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venbede
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I was there this morning in my kilt. Sorry to miss you.

I noticed the non-swing of the incense today. I believe it shouldn't be swung until the priest has put incense in at the introit. It can be put on in the sacristy beforehand, but perhaps this didn't happen. I'll ask the thurifer next time I see him.

As regards crosses, why not? One for the choir and one for the sanctuary party.

As a matter of fact, Fortesuce and O'Connor don't think processional crosses are that important. Apparently they are not used in the diocese of Rome.

I hope you enjoyed it. The Sunday School and the three readings were introduced, I'm glad to say. at the start of Lent.

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moonlitdoor
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That is a coincidence venbede. I think you are enjoying a bit of poetic license in considering west Croydon as being in the north downs ! I was visiting Croydon to go to the Mitcham road crematorium where my parents were laid to rest, and chose St Michael's for its relative proximity. It was different from my usual but I liked it.

I was just curious about the crosses as I had not seen two be carried before.

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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai

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Oblatus
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The thurible can be swung or not at the entrance depending on whether the thurifer thinks the coals need to get hotter (so some moving air will encourage more intense burning) or are just about right. It's an art or a science I hope to learn soon when I'm trained to be a thurifer.

I suspect that what was happening at the altar after the entrance was not the lighting of the coals but the placement of incense on the already-hot coals just before using the thurible to cense the altar. Our MC's cue for this activity is "Make incense." Sometimes this is also called "charging the thurible."

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Japes

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Dare I say it, but detail of the liturgy to be followed is not a matter for the Choirmaster (or Organist for that matter) but for the rector/parish priest/ senior minister/pastor.

As an organist I totally agree, but as my current incumbent is disinterested in detail, has a poor memory, and, shall we say, somewhat inexperienced in the more Anglo Catholic traditions and as a result insists on sidling up to me on a weekly basis to check on such detail I currently have no choice to be very aware of the detail. I do my best to be tactful and suggest rather than dictate, though.

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