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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Miscellaneous questions of a liturgical nature
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheMightyMartyr:
In many Anglican parish churches there is the "Bishop's Chair" usually slightly more ornate or at least larger and sits empty most of the time... is there a point to having one? Can anyone else use it?
I'm guessing it is a mini cathedra... but seems redundant, a symbolic chair in place of a symbolic chair...
It can be a powerful teaching medium, both in terms of Anglican (and other episcopal) ecclesiology and mission and symbolism, and in terms of missiology and Christology, as we learn to be the hands and feet and mouth of the Christ-shepherd who also is not visible to us, but who works on and out through us.
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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Zappa, if the Anglican Church ever decides that human cloning is the way to keep clergy numbers up, you have to be first in the line for sampling (with pyx-e and Anselmina just behind).
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by TheMightyMartyr:
In many Anglican parish churches there is the "Bishop's Chair" usually slightly more ornate or at least larger and sits empty most of the time... is there a point to having one? Can anyone else use it?
I'm guessing it is a mini cathedra... but seems redundant, a symbolic chair in place of a symbolic chair...
The throne is for the diocesan (or area, if you have such) bishop, during Pontifical functions (masses, vespers, benediction). Prelates outside of their jurisdiction use the faldstool (like a curule chair sans back) when presiding, or sit in choir if not.
The 'correct' position for this is, as Oblatus says, the North side of the sanctuary, upon three steps which should nevertheless be lower than the steps to the altar; though parishes using Nervous Odor or similar often have it in place of the priest's sedilia, before/behind the altar or slightly to the south.
Nobody else should ever sit in it (unless you are a monastery church which happens to have an abbot with special privileges. Though I must confess: I have sat in ours, which is large and comfortable and horrendously baroque. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
The 'point' is to remind people that Eucharistic unity comes from communion with the bishop, as the fons et origo of the Church in the place, and as the Ordinary of the diocese/diocesan area. It is, in a number of senses, His parish, and his church and his congregation. And so that he can use it when he visits, of course.
With nothing else to add to this answer except to say, my parish clergy do my nerve in when they seem to make a point of sitting in it for every possible service going... I'm not sure what justification they use but it drives me mad none the less...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
With nothing else to add to this answer except to say, my parish clergy do my nerve in when they seem to make a point of sitting in it for every possible service going... I'm not sure what justification they use but it drives me mad none the less...
Maybe they've taken the word 'vicar' a little too literally...
Have you asked the why?
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
With nothing else to add to this answer except to say, my parish clergy do my nerve in when they seem to make a point of sitting in it for every possible service going... I'm not sure what justification they use but it drives me mad none the less...
Maybe they've taken the word 'vicar' a little too literally...
Have you asked the why?
No, I did raise the question a couple of years back, about a year into my tenure as Sacristan (as my old Church used to rope it of except when the Bishop was present - I asked if they would like me to source a mice piece of ascetic rope for it...) and didn't get a real answer as to why the practice exists in this Church and have since left it, especially since I have been busy with just putting small things right (like a veil for our aumbry etc.) and have since pissed of the MU so am now in the bad books and can't dare raise any contentious issues...
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
... and have since pissed of the MU so am now in the bad books and can't dare raise any contentious issues...
Bad idea. Bad, bad, bad idea. Do let us know when your funeral will be and we will all turn out (or perhaps there won't be one because you will just find yourself at the bottom of a reservoir with your feet weighted down with heavy-duty fruit cake).
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
... and have since pissed of the MU so am now in the bad books and can't dare raise any contentious issues...
Bad idea. Bad, bad, bad idea. Do let us know when your funeral will be and we will all turn out (or perhaps there won't be one because you will just find yourself at the bottom of a reservoir with your feet weighted down with heavy-duty fruit cake).
I would keep September free:
next PCC is start of September and I'm placing pawns to beat the MU at their own game... if only I can deal with Priest running scared of MU...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
No-one beats the MU at their own game. All priests are scared of the MU and so should everybody else be.
I speak as one who once found himself wedged at the back of a bus which had filled up with African bishops' wives, all large ladies in clothing liberally patterned with pictures of Mary Sumner. That was 25 years ago and I have never been the same since.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No-one beats the MU at their own game. All priests are scared of the MU and so should everybody else be.
I speak as one who once found himself wedged at the back of a bus which had filled up with African bishops' wives, all large ladies in clothing liberally patterned with pictures of Mary Sumner. That was 25 years ago and I have never been the same since.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
That mental picture has put me in such a good mood for the evening shift at work.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Clavus
Shipmate
# 9427
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Posted
quote:
Maybe they've taken the word 'vicar' a little too literally...
Or maybe not. Regardless of the obsolete connection of the term 'vicar' with tithes, the truth is that the parish priest is the bishops' deputy ('vicar' in a general sense) in presiding at the Eucharist in the parish church in the bishop's absence. A parish church does not possess a cathedra, only a president's chair - for the bishop if he is present, or his deputy if he is not. A baroque throne-like 'bishop's chair' in a parish church which can only be used for a (rare) pontifical vespers obscures this truth, and should probably be hidden away when not in use rather than left on display and empty.
Posts: 389 | From: The Indian Summer of the C of E | Registered: May 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheMightyMartyr:
In many Anglican parish churches there is the "Bishop's Chair" usually slightly more ornate or at least larger and sits empty most of the time... is there a point to having one? Can anyone else use it?
I'm guessing it is a mini cathedra... but seems redundant, a symbolic chair in place of a symbolic chair...
I think it is meant to symbolise the bishop and the fact that the parish clergy function as his agent. It follows that normally, no one else should sit in it, and that if the bishop visits, he should. If it is movable, it should be moved for the occasion into the middle to provide a dignified position for the episcopal situpon.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I would have thought that Clavus's view is both more theologically and practically sensible. A piece of furniture that does little but gather dust for most of its existence is not much of a living symbol. Far better to have it in regular use by the person who is the bishop's official representative in the parish. After all, how often does the average parish get a visit from its bishop? Once a year would be nice but in my experience that's more than we can expect.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Quam Dilecta
Shipmate
# 12541
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Posted
In North America, Anglican chancels designed by the architect Ralph Adams Cram usually include a permanent bishop's seat, located as previously mentioned and flanked by seats for the bishop's chaplains. He strongly advocates this practice in his book Church Building, published in 1900. As an example, he illustrates the bishop's seat at All Saints' Church in Dorchester, Massachusetts. The church was completed in 1893; the sanctuary paneling, in which the bishop's chair is incorporated, was installed a few years later.
Are any shipmates aware of English precedents for fixed bishops' seats in parish churches? Cram's architectural lineage can be traced to George Frederick Bodley via Bodley's pupil Henry Vaughn, but I do not recall seeing such seats in illustrations of Bodley's churches.
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Blessd are they that dwell in thy house
Posts: 406 | From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
After all, how often does the average parish get a visit from its bishop? Once a year would be nice but in my experience that's more than we can expect.
Last year about half a dozen times (if not one or two more times)...
This year we are looking at about 3 times I think...
Just to add:
Our Bishops Chair is not just some ordinary bit of furniture - it is rather large with the Diocesan Crest and would probably pass as a modern Cathedra if erected in a Basilica style Cathedral.
[ 31. July 2013, 07:15: Message edited by: Sergius-Melli ]
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Yes but in Wales bishops are pastors I believe. We have Managers in the C of E.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, that was one of the first things that I noticed when I moved to Wales. It's a flatter structure, too- no suffragans (and only one Assistant Bishop, in Llandaff) and no full-time archdeacons.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yes, that was one of the first things that I noticed when I moved to Wales. It's a flatter structure, too- no suffragans (and only one Assistant Bishop, in Llandaff) and no full-time archdeacons.
St. David's has an Assistant Bishop as well (I've never met him, but he wrote an article for the last edition of Pobl Dewi and appeared in our intercessions since he's taken ill...) I'm not sure whether +John Saxbee's position is official (per se) or what his dutie are, but he exists and is titled Assistant Bishop...
[ 31. July 2013, 11:08: Message edited by: Sergius-Melli ]
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Oh yes, of course, I was forgetting about honorary assistants. I was only thinking of stipendiary ones. But I don't think that even in England honorary assistants have any managerial role, do they? They're usually* bishops who have retired and are available to help woth pastoral work and occasional offices.
*Exceptions include: mini-PEVs (+Fulham looking after Resolution C people in Southwark, and so on); bishops who are not retired but have returned to parochial ministry (e.g. ++David Hope in his last job); bishops who have been consecrated overseas and are in non-episcopal work here.
[ 31. July 2013, 12:18: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta: In North America, Anglican chancels designed by the architect Ralph Adams Cram usually include a permanent bishop's seat,
<snip> [e.g] All Saints' Church in Dorchester, Massachusetts. The church was completed in 1893; the sanctuary paneling, in which the bishop's chair is incorporated, was installed a few years later.
Are any shipmates aware of English precedents for fixed bishops' seats in parish churches? Cram's architectural lineage can be traced to George Frederick Bodley via Bodley's pupil Henry Vaughn, but I do not recall seeing such seats in illustrations of Bodley's churches.
The late Bodley and Garner church I am familiar with has not got a fixed bishop's chair - it was built between 1887 and 1907/9* - so around the same dates as the example you give above. There is a carved chair with arms that's called the Bishop's Chair, which usually lives at the back of the Lady Chapel. It gets used for the 8am Sunday and midweek services in that position by the congregation and/or sidesman. It is moved out into the crossing before the sanctuary for Choral Evensong and comes out for some visits by the Bishop (not all of them). This church doesn't have fixed chairs or pews, never has had. Bodley designed it as a flexible space.
* start/end building of the tower, which was the last thing built.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
We have developed a tendancy, after much bitching from me, of not leaving unused furnityure laying around. It keeps the sanctuary a lot tidier.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Which way to books lie? Decades ago, I was taught that liturgical books in the chancel, especially on the altar, were turned back up and face down "to recall the Hebrew."
I've seen it in various churches, but nowadays everything seems to be set with books facing up.
What is common in your shack?
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Which way to books lie? Decades ago, I was taught that liturgical books in the chancel, especially on the altar, were turned back up and face down "to recall the Hebrew."
I've seen it in various churches, but nowadays everything seems to be set with books facing up.
What is common in your shack?
When the Book of Epistles and the Book of Gospels are on the credence table during Solemn Mass, they're placed upright, leaning against the east wall, with their spines to the south, so the books will not have their "backs" to the Blessed Sacrament.
When the Missal is on its stand away from the altar, it seems to be face-up (so the Cross on the cover shows) and spine down (better for wear and tear, I think, so the page block isn't being pulled away from the spine by Mr. Gravity).
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
My rule of thumb is that if Lamburn or Fortescue don't address it, it's way too fussy for even me to care about. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
As with the direction books ought to face when closed, so with the order in which altar candles are supposed to be lit.
[ 01. August 2013, 16:28: Message edited by: Fr Weber ]
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
I've seen it that way too. Also face down and spine down.
(I've seen recently, after the Mass a huge BIBLE of all things opened in the middle and placed in on a missal stand in the center of the altar on top of the dust cover...obviously for decoration by someone who cannot escape their hospital chapel Protestantism)
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Only protestants read the Bible, eh, Mama Thomas?
It's a common sight in many French churches (and elsewhere) for the Bible (or at least the lectionary, open at the Gospel of the day) to be on display, and sometimes a light burning besides it to show that Christ is present in the scriptures as much as in the sacrament.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
We leave the Evangeliary open at the gospel of the day too, but on its stand, where 'twas placed after 'twas proclaimed. Putting on the altar seems frankly barmy...
It lies face down on the altar, but largely so that when the deacon/celebrant picks it up for the gospel procession, it's the right way round...
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
My rule of thumb is that if Lamburn or Fortescue don't address it, it's way too fussy for even me to care about.
As with the direction books ought to face when closed, so with the order in which altar candles are supposed to be lit.
The way I learned about not letting the books rudely turn their backs to the Blessed Sacrament was by finding out days later that the celebrant had been annoyed that the books were facing the wrong way. I had wondered why he'd been glancing strangely at the credence table. I don't think this "rule" had ever come up before.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
That sounds about right!
One of my Altar Guild ladies is very particular about the Presence Light. She becomes agitated if the light has gone out between Wednesday evening (normally the last time someone is in the chapel during the week) and Sunday morning. I have explained to her that the function of the light is to alert worshippers that the MBS is in the Tabernacle, and that if there are no people in the church it doesn't really matter that the light has gone out--but to no avail.
People pick their "things" to make important, regardless of the things which really ought to be important. As a priest I used to know once said, "I can stand up in that pulpit and say 'Jesus is not God' and no one will bat an eye--but if I move one goddam candle all hell breaks loose!"
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It's a common sight in many French churches (and elsewhere) for the Bible (or at least the lectionary, open at the Gospel of the day) to be on display, and sometimes a light burning besides it to show that Christ is present in the scriptures as much as in the sacrament.
But that is simply not the case. The Real Presence of the Blessed Sacrament is a unique Thing, and St. Thomas teaches us that one cannot get any closer to the Beatific Vision than the Blessed Sacrament. Pontiffs have essentially said the same thing, and there is absolutely no authority in the RCC for such an illicit practice.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
One of my Altar Guild ladies is very particular about the Presence Light. She becomes agitated if the light has gone out between Wednesday evening (normally the last time someone is in the chapel during the week) and Sunday morning. I have explained to her that the function of the light is to alert worshippers that the MBS is in the Tabernacle, and that if there are no people in the church it doesn't really matter that the light has gone out--but to no avail.
I have to support the lady on this one, as she is demonstrating a proper Catholic understanding of the Real Presence and an historic liturgical practice regarding the sanctuary lamp. (I have never heard it called a Presence Light. Even ACs have always called it a sanctuary lamp.)
One never knows when someone might visit the church unexpectedly, and they should easily be able to tell that the Most Holy is present. A veiled tabernacle can also be considered evidence of the Real Presence. But the sanctuary lamp should be cared for and should not be routinely going out. Normally eight-day candles are used for this purpose.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
We do use eight-day candles, and every effort is made to ensure that there is always a lit candle in the lamp. But sometimes, for whatever reason, the candle goes out with half the wax to go. Or someone should have changed it on Sunday after Mass, but forgot.
I agree that keeping the lamp lit is desirable, but it's nothing to have a cow over if you come in on Wednesday morning and it's gone out.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
A veiled tabernacle can also be considered evidence of the Real Presence.
Surprisingly, when reading around the history of the Sanctuary Lamp (arming myself for PCC) I came across a reference to the fact that it is the veil rather than the lamp which is the important thing... I apologise that I cannot provide a reference, I read a lot and didn't take referenced notes, just wondering if anyone can validate this with a reference?
Whilst I would prefer a lamp to be there, in the MOTR shack that I try to keep to the proper way it is comforting to have a veil for our Aumbry so that tourists who visit us may kneel in prayer and respect the Presence of Christ.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
A veiled tabernacle can also be considered evidence of the Real Presence.
Surprisingly, when reading around the history of the Sanctuary Lamp (arming myself for PCC) I came across a reference to the fact that it is the veil rather than the lamp which is the important thing... I apologise that I cannot provide a reference, I read a lot and didn't take referenced notes, just wondering if anyone can validate this with a reference?
Whilst I would prefer a lamp to be there, in the MOTR shack that I try to keep to the proper way it is comforting to have a veil for our Aumbry so that tourists who visit us may kneel in prayer and respect the Presence of Christ.
Fortescue and O'Connell speak of it, as dos Msgr. Harold E. Collins (1935). 1962 ed. The Church Edifice and its Appointmenets. The Newman Press, Westminster, MD. pp. 95-99.
Title IV, #6 of The Roman Ritual stats " tabernaculum conopaeo decenter opertum." Collins lists various responses made to dubia by the Sacred Congregation of Rites between 1866-1904, all of which affirm the need for the conopaeum, or tabernacle veil, regardless of the style or materials of which the tabernacle is made.
The veil is no longer mandatory in the current regulations, but is still considered praiseworthy.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
...it is the veil rather than the lamp which is the important thing...
This sounds suspiciously like saying, No maniple, no mass, when discussing chasubles.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Far better to have it in regular use by the person who is the bishop's official representative in the parish.
Ours sits in the confessional when the Bishop's not around. Makes it more comfortable for Father when the whole parish queues up to make their Confession. Ha.
Thurible
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Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
One of my Altar Guild ladies is very particular about the Presence Light. She becomes agitated if the light has gone out between Wednesday evening (normally the last time someone is in the chapel during the week) and Sunday morning. I have explained to her that the function of the light is to alert worshippers that the MBS is in the Tabernacle, and that if there are no people in the church it doesn't really matter that the light has gone out--but to no avail.
Is your church not open during the day for visitors? Or for the saying of morning and evening prayer?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It's a common sight in many French churches (and elsewhere) for the Bible (or at least the lectionary, open at the Gospel of the day) to be on display, and sometimes a light burning besides it to show that Christ is present in the scriptures as much as in the sacrament.
But that is simply not the case. The Real Presence of the Blessed Sacrament is a unique Thing, and St. Thomas teaches us that one cannot get any closer to the Beatific Vision than the Blessed Sacrament. Pontiffs have essentially said the same thing, and there is absolutely no authority in the RCC for such an illicit practice.
Which law does this break? I am aware of no law restricting where one can put a lit candle.
The Gospel procession is, when most fully celebrated, accompanied by candles and incense. Why not keep a candle burning outside of the celebration of Mass?
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
We leave the Evangeliary open at the gospel of the day too...
"Evangeliary"? I can guess what you mean by it (a Gospel book?) but I don't remember ever hearing or seeing that word before!
Which particular grouping of Christians is likely to use it?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I could give you an answer for that but this not being Hell I think I'd better not.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Is it just a tongue-in-cheek play on 'lectionary'?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
The epistolary is the book of epistles that the subdeacon uses at Solemn Mass to sing the epistle. This is the anglicized version of epistolarium, which is the Latin term used in the rubrics of the Roman Missal. One sees this term in Roman Catholic books pertaining to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, as well as in Anglo-Catholic books of a more traditional bent.
The evangelary (usually no i is the book of gospels that the deacon uses to sing the gospel at Mass, whether in the Extraordinary or Ordinary Form. It is an anglicized form of evangelarium, which the Latin term. In the current liturgical books it is usually translated as book of gospels, but in older rubrical books as evangelary.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
The Gospel procession is, when most fully celebrated, accompanied by candles and incense. Why not keep a candle burning outside of the celebration of Mass? Which law does this break? I am aware of no law restricting where one can put a lit candle.
I misunderstood. I thought that you meant during the Mass. I still find it a questionable practice outside of Mass, if its rationale is taught the way that you described it, because it implies that the presence is equivalent to the Blessed Sacrament Itself, which is not the case.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
A lamp is usually burning by a statue of our Lady, but that doesn't mean she is personally present.
I'm not impressed by making a Bible a shrine object where there is neither the sacrament reserved nor icons nor statues (as I've often seen in the Church of Scotland). We are embodied visual creatures and God has give us the means to worship through all our senses, not just hearing words. Making a closed book stand in for the other means of grace is missing the point.
But I can see Angloid's point - the gospel book in Orthodox services is treated much as an icon and suitably venerated.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Making a closed book stand in for the other means of grace is missing the point.
Who said anything about a closed book?
Of course the presence of Christ in the Sacrament is of a different nature to his presence in the Scriptures, and in the congregation. Nevertheless we can feel as close to him through the imaginative reading of the Gospels as we do in receiving communion. Not that this means that the bible, or gospel book, needs to be given the same kind of external reverence, of course; but nor is it just a symbol of Christ; in reading the words we have a real encounter with him. So if lighting a candle and making the gospel book a focus outside of the liturgy as well as inside it, is helpful, why not do it?
(Slightly tangential thought: I have often wondered why the ministers bow to the altar-table at the beginning of the liturgy, but not to the congregation. Both are signs of Christ in the midst of his people, so surely both should be reverenced?)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
(Slightly tangential thought: I have often wondered why the ministers bow to the altar-table at the beginning of the liturgy, but not to the congregation. Both are signs of Christ in the midst of his people, so surely both should be reverenced?)
But the altar is bowed to as the site of the sacrifice of calvary, rather than as an sign of Christ. Unless the tabernacle is on the altar, in which case a genuflexion is made on account of His Real Presence, rather than a Sign of Him.
If we went about bowing to everything which is a sign of Christ in the midst of his people, we'd be at it all day...
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
St. Thomas teaches us that one cannot get any closer to the Beatific Vision than the Blessed Sacrament.
Citation? (Seriously, I'd be surprised if Thomas said this, but he's surprised me before).
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
My rule of thumb is that if Lamburn or Fortescue don't address it, it's way too fussy for even me to care about.
As with the direction books ought to face when closed, so with the order in which altar candles are supposed to be lit.
But they DO address the order in which candles are to be lit!
I stand corrected! That'll teach me to skip the boring bits about church furnishings...
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
What is the logic behind having two candles on the altar on the same side (in tonight's case the gospel side)? My reaction that it makes the baby Jesus cry, but I'm assuming those who do it have some reason that escapes me.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
So that you have somewhere to put the pot-plant? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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