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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pacifica plays... Australia, NZ and the like!
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
For baby Esther and all who mourn for her. Special prayers rom one mother to another.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
I have posted on prayer thread for the five year old boy who was swept into sea at Pearl Beach on central coast here more than 24 hours ago now.
I know the beach very well. Where he was playing was at the end of the beach which gets force of currents and waves direct from ocean rolling In to Broken Bay. The other end is more sheltered by a headland.
I saw many fishing trawlers come around the point from mouth of Hawkesbury in the morning. It was deep enough for them to anchor about a metre from the shore and a fisherman would hop out, walk across beach for cigarettes and trawler would leave again.
Lots of rips and we were not allowed in surf. We had to stay in pool.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
Got to Kiama yesterday. Never been before. Blowhole was blowing and so was a freezing wind. But it was nice to see palm trees again, and some sunshine. And the sea. And to smell salt air. Just a shame about the temperature, really!
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
Kiama is pleasant. Blowhole works best with southerly blowing so it should have been working well.
A nasty shock here this morning. I opened the emailed gas bill to find this quarter says nearly $1400. A small apartment, I don't use heater in the daytime and have it on low at night. Not every night. Certainly not in the day as sun shines in brightly and I sit with it on my back.
This amount is many times the last bill and many times similar bill last year. Obviously, I will need to make enquiries, but opening it made mr feel ill.
[ 16. July 2014, 22:45: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
I have just gone through all bank statements online and listed gas payments. Rang gas company and they need to inspect the main meter and the subsidiary one in apartment. However, when woman pulled up account, she said there seemed to be something wrong with latest bill.
Still feel all churned up and dithery.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
That sort of thing sounds really scary, Loth - even if you're 99.99% sure it must be wrong, it looks scary in print.
Hope you can get it sorted out all right.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Lothlorien, you should speak with your brother. He has written quite a bit on consumer protection law, and there's sure to be a specific way to approach difficulties with utilities suppliers.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
Have been in touch, thanks. He has forwarded me some info. His bill, which came a couple of days ago is much less than this one. His included the gas central heating which comes on automatically twice a day for some hours.
[ 17. July 2014, 07:47: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Left at the Altar
Ship's Siren
# 5077
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Lothlorien, you should speak with your brother. He has written quite a bit on consumer protection law, and there's sure to be a specific way to approach difficulties with utilities suppliers.
Here
Posts: 9111 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
Thanks LATA. I have those details tucked away in a file already. All help welcome. However, as GeeD said, brother is other end of phone line.
If you want more detail after reading GeeD's post, send me message or email. Won't post family details online.
[ 17. July 2014, 10:58: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Loth, I'm glad you have knowledgeable people around (as well as having the commonsense to know how to deal with it) - I always find those things a bit scary. Somehow seeing things written down makes it worse, even though you know it must be an error.
Today I received a quote for fixing the driveway, which was a lower figure than I expected. Because I am not replacing an unnecessary path, the money I was paid out by the insurance company will cover it, with enough left over to insulate my house ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) .
I am so grateful to the bloke from the insurance company who pointed out that it was my choice how I used the money.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
Hope you get the insulating done soon. Today is very cold with roads closed due to snow and black ice in Blue Mountains. Lots more snow elsewhere.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
I am in Mallacoota tonight, called in as police chaplain.... The police are managing the process of grieving in town. A couple from here were on the plane. The plane that was shot down.
I assume friends and family are doing their own thing, but on a more general level, in a small town, everyone mourns. Information needs to be managed and so on.
I was referred in, as police chaplain, by chaplaincy HQ in police. I am pleased they recognise I might be useful, but sad to do so in such a situation.
God be with this who lost loved ones .
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Yes indeed Rowen, we understand the grief in a small town, where everyone knew those lost and knows those bereaved. It's the same sense that makes small town and suburban Anzac Day services so much more moving than the big marches in cities.
Prayers from us for those lost. May they rest in peace and rise in the glory of our risen Lord. Prayers also for those who mourn and those who support them.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
There was an article in the Daily Telegraph on the web today about an Australian lady who lost her brother on the Malaysian Airlines plane that disappeared in March, and has now lost her stepdaughter on the one that was shot down.
for all who mourn, and for the souls of all who were killed.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
beyond awful - so much potential for good has been lost with the lives of those on board - may God bring alongside all who mourn those who can minister to them. Rowen, may you have the Word you need when there are no words to say.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
Thanks. Really, all I am doing is just sitting and listening, and being proof to small kids that you can fly on planes and not die.
Rain and cold cold cold just make it all grimmer.
There are no immediate grieving family members here. There will be eventually, but all are away at a family reunion OS.... Hence the flight involvement.
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
The news from Ukraine is getting worse with each bulletin, and the stories about those murdered becoming more and more heart-wrenching. Keep up the good work Rowen. Mallacoota is such a pretty little township, and now to have this grief descend on it.
In better news, a great victory over Trinity in both the Firsts and the Seconds - 62-17 for the Firsts and 64 - 3 for the Seconds. An excellent start to the competition round after a good run last quarter.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rowen:
Thanks. Really, all I am doing is just sitting and listening, and being proof to small kids that you can fly on planes and not die.
Rain and cold cold cold just make it all grimmer.
There are no immediate grieving family members here. There will be eventually, but all are away at a family reunion OS.... Hence the flight involvement.
One is a kiwi, so there's a fair degree of grief here too. The other kiwi resident on board, technically a Brit, is from the area from which I originally came, and was well known there, so much grief there, too. But basically much grief in many places, I guess.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582
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Posted
We had a very impromptu Memorial Service at the Cathedral this morning. Local ABC TV turned up - there have been three people lost on MH17 from the Top End, including a wonderful young woman who was a teacher at a remote Aboriginal community. We will join with our RC brethren at a mass at the Catholic Cathedral on Wednesday evening. Our theme this morning (picked up quite well by the ABC reporter) was peace and justice, not revenge.
May the Lord have mercy on those who died and on those who committed this crime; may there be justice; and may those who mourn be comforted.
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'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'
Posts: 506 | From: Top End | Registered: Oct 2005
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
I was in the queue in the supermarket and saw the Press headlines. Lynda Pattison, the Dean of Christchurch Cathedral has died. I have kind of lost touch with the Cathedral, but Lynda's wrting was always thought provoking and she was a woman I admired.
The checkout of a supermarket is not a good place to discover bad news.
May she rest in peace and rise in glory.
the Regulars at the Cathedral who have gone through a lot in the last 4 years.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
Crikey, Huia, she was only 40. The last few years must have been so incredibly stressful for her. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.
[ 21. July 2014, 05:15: Message edited by: Banner Lady ]
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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James the Confident
Ship's Pastor
# 9678
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Posted
for those affected by the air crash.
I have to admit I am tiring of the media frenzy over it. It is being portrayed as murder when it is quite clear the perpetrators thought it was a military plane. Surely this means at worst it is manslaughter, not murder.
Please, don't get me wrong, I am appalled too, as much by the complacency of the people in charge of air traffic who deemed it okay to fly as well as the airlines (note the plural) who flew that way to save money. I have been told Qantas decided against that route some time ago.
If it had indeed been a military plane shot down, would we have been so horrified? I somehow doubt it.
We now need to pray that there will be cooperation in the repatriation of the bodies and the recovery of significant materials, e.g. the black boxes.
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"How do you get all those coins?" asked Mort.
IN PAIRS
"Mort", Terry Pratchett
Posts: 3219 | From: Geelong | Registered: Jul 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
No James, it is murder. The fact that the victims were civilians rather than the intended military is of no consequence - the intention was still to kill. If I go out intending to shoot and kill your fiancée, but by bad aiming get you instead, it is still murder. And apart from any intenrion to kill, it was an act done with reckless indifference to human life, a classic example of this basis for murder introduced by Sir James Stephens.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Not just disregard for human life, but the dreadful lack of respect for the human results – the treatment of the bodies and the looting of their effects.
And the flouting of international convention, keeping international specialists out, and arguing over possession of the 'black box' – actually orange, and we've seen the video of someone carrying it across the field. (Wouldn't there be two 'black boxes?)
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582
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Posted
On the evidence so far, based on my knowledge of the Laws of Armed Conflict and an academic and professional background in military ethics, the destruction of MH17 appears to be a war crime, and therefore murder. (NOTE: on the evidence so far, in which it appears that armed persons in a civil war used military equipment to shoot down a civilian plane).
How can we say this? Obviously, if the separatists deliberately targeted and shot down a civilian plane, knowing it to be a civilian plane, then it is a war crime. Secondly, if they shot down the plane with reckless indifference - that is, not bothering to check if it was a civilian plane or not - that is still a war crime. It would not be a war crime if they made an honest mistake (for example, were unaware that it was in the area, aimed at a Ukrainian military plane, and accidentally hit the civilian plane) but there is no evidence that this is what happened. So, on the limited evidence so far, it appears likely that the shooting was a criminal act, which we could call murder, either through intention or reckless indifference.
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'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'
Posts: 506 | From: Top End | Registered: Oct 2005
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I'm not an expert in any relevant field, but from what I've read and heard about the crash and its aftermath it seems that if the "rebel forces" had done nothing wrong, they wouldn't be hampering the crash investigators by not allowing them access to the crash-site and messing about with the evidence - how were they able to spirit away the "black box"?
As for the way they're apparently treating the bodies of the passengers ... words fail me. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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James the Confident
Ship's Pastor
# 9678
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Posted
Point taken but I'm still sick of hearing about it.
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"How do you get all those coins?" asked Mort.
IN PAIRS
"Mort", Terry Pratchett
Posts: 3219 | From: Geelong | Registered: Jul 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
DangerousDeacon, would the rules you quote apply to an organisation such as the separatist movement in Ukraine? AFAIK, only Russia gives any recognition to it, and otherwise it's in the same category as the KKK, or one of the bikie organisations.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Crikey, Huia, she was only 40. The last few years must have been so incredibly stressful for her. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.
There is a massive collective mourning going around the national church (adding to the horror of Gaza and MH17). I'll be going to her funeral (the details are not yet announced):the dean's network of eight people is deeply shocked.
[ 22. July 2014, 08:32: Message edited by: Zappa ]
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I heard about the Dean of Christchurch via friends in the Church of Ireland on FB, and thought at first they were talking about Christ Church Cathedral in Dublin. 40 is far too young.
for her friends, congregation, colleagues and all in the Church of New Zealand who mourn her loss.
Rest eternal grant unto her, O Lord, and let light perpetual shine upon her.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Zappa, if you're coming to Christchurch bring your winter woolies. It has been seriously cold here. The other day the temperature was 9c but the wind chill factor brought it down to around 2c.
Besides it being the depths of winter there is a catalogue of difficult things; international, national, local, with friends and family, and immediately personal, so much so that I'm feeling overwhelmed. I have a very strong temptation just to go to bed, pull up the covers and not emerge until spring.
It's not so much the black dog, more like a pack of rabid wolverines.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
Zappa, if you're coming to Christchurch bring your winter woolies. It has been seriously cold here. The other day the temperature was 9c but the wind chill factor brought it down to around 2c.
Huia
I will be wearing the new thermals I bought today. The funeral is on Tuesday. I'm afraid It'll be a same day hit and run as I'm supposed to be at a conference in Rotorua, but I'm representing my diocese.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
I am very glad I own here. There are places I would prefer, but this is just fine. I bought here three years ago. The place downstairs is identical in layout to mine but looks straight onto other buildings whereas mine has city views and trees etc. That place is for sale for almost $100,000 more than I paid for here three years ago. That is an increase of well over 20%.
It is reported today that the median house price in Sydney is now over $810,000. A one bedroom, unrenovated terrace in Sydney with no parking went at auction for more than that at the weekend. Ridiculous.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Some here may like this obit
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
Thank you for that. I knew little about her but was impressed by what she had done in such a short life and bt the spirit in which she acted.
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
DangerousDeacon, would the rules you quote apply to an organisation such as the separatist movement in Ukraine? AFAIK, only Russia gives any recognition to it, and otherwise it's in the same category as the KKK, or one of the bikie organisations.
Hi Gee D. Yes, the rules do apply. They are a bit slippery in dealing with non-state actors (such as terrorists), but the Geneva Conventions and the Laws of Armed Conflict certainly apply to organised combatants claiming to act on behalf of a state entity - such as separatists controlling a large slab of territory, running a state and engaging in a civil war. Thus ISIS shooting Iraqi soldiers who have surrendered and the forces of the "Donetsk Republic" firing at civilian planes could be considered war crimes.
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'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'
Posts: 506 | From: Top End | Registered: Oct 2005
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
Thanks Jengie.
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Thank you DangerousDeacon. That may lead to a difference between civilian law and military - killing a person other than your intended victim would be murder in a civilian court, but not so in a military one from what you say about the rules. And another question - can the rules apply to someone other than a person on the opposing sides, such as the Malaysian plane going about its usual civilian duties? It just sounds odd to me that it is not a crime under the rules you refer to because of a claim that it was a case of mistaken identity.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582
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Posted
Hi Gee D. Good point, but mistaken identity also applies in civil law. It depends on the original intention of your action. If, for example, you are in New South Wales, with a rifle, and you are on a pig hunting expedition. You are firing at a pig, but you just miss and your shot hits another hunter, killing him. Probably not murder, because you were intending to kill a pig. (Manslaughter maybe). (NOTE: I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice!!) But if you were a gang member in Sydney, and you did a drive-by shooting and hit the wrong person, it certainly is murder.
In the Law of Armed Conflict, if you are firing at a legitimate target (e.g. another soldier, a military plane); and hit a civilian standing nearby or a civilian airplane in the same area, then like the pig shooter, probably not murder. But if you are firing at one civilian airplane and hit another, it may be mistaken identity, but like the drive-by shooter, it is murder. And of course, if you were just shooting a civilian plane, knowing it is likely to be a civilian plane but not caring about its exact identity, still murder.
Now, those are just broad principles, each case will have details that may incline to a verdict of murder, manslaughter, or not guilty ... But that would be a long, long discussion.
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'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'
Posts: 506 | From: Top End | Registered: Oct 2005
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
...that probably belongs in Purgatory!
I have found the discussion interesting but think it is heading away from AS material so I suggest Purg or PM seems the way to go if it is to continue.
Thanks.
WW - AS Host.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582
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Posted
No worries, WW! If anyone else is interested in taking it to Purgatory, happy to follow.
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'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'
Posts: 506 | From: Top End | Registered: Oct 2005
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DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582
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Posted
On a less purgatorial note - I am shortly travelling to Griffith NSW for the Australian Deans' Conference. Any other shipmates likely to be in town?
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'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'
Posts: 506 | From: Top End | Registered: Oct 2005
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Griffith, oh my goodness, that's a rather obscure place for everyone to have to get to, and a long journey for you, surely DD? I'm guessing you won't be bumping into the Dean of Sydney there.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Barnabas Aus
Shipmate
# 15869
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Posted
Can recommend the bistro at the Ex-Services Club if you are at a loose end. Some interesting menu choices - not your standard club fare.
Posts: 375 | From: Hunter Valley NSW | Registered: Sep 2010
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DangerousDeacon:
On a less purgatorial note - I am shortly travelling to Griffith NSW for the Australian Deans' Conference. Any other shipmates likely to be in town?
And we can recommend an Italian restaurant in the main street - sort of over the road from the Comfort Inn Gemini.
And a slight diversion, not wanting to contravene any hostly suggestions, but thanks for you discussion of the rules of engagement. I shan't really need to follow that any further.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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