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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
moron
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quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
These two statements aren't unconnected, y'know.

I know they might be less connected than some believe, y'know.

Isn't there a latent climate thread change around somewhere? [Big Grin]

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Choirboy
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I agree. Bush is responsible, but Cheney pushed things that way in the absence of a strong leader. I believe Bush's method was usually set up two warring factions in the administration and would go with whichever side "won" the internal politics. In this case, it was Cheney-Rumsfeld versus Powell (any others?) and Powell got his balls handed to him.

I should have qualified my remark by saying 'ordinarily, the VP is...'.

[Argh - crossposted over the page turn; originally replying to tclune on the bottom of the last page].

[ 02. September 2008, 15:44: Message edited by: Choirboy ]

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moron
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Post preview is friend my.
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Hiro's Leap

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quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
Isn't there a latent climate thread change around somewhere? [Big Grin]

Ok ok. [Smile] Your two comments set my irony senses tingling, and I couldn't resist replying to the dig. Apologies for the tangent.

[ 02. September 2008, 15:48: Message edited by: Hiro's Leap ]

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FreeJack
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What are the chances of a third party candidate entering the race?

A Ross Perot type or that Green bloke or a rebel from the two main parties?

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
What are the chances of a third party candidate entering the race?

A Ross Perot type or that Green bloke or a rebel from the two main parties?

I seem to recall that Bob Barr of Georgia was planning on running. I don't know whether he still is planning on it, but if he does there is a real chance that Obama may win Georgia in a three-way race of two Republicans and Obama. There's not much chance of him getting a majority, but a plurality in a three-way race is a real possibility. I don't think Barr would make any difference anywhere else, but that might be enough to ensure Obama's election if the race tightens up some more...

--Tom Clune

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Foolhearty
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Ralph Perquadrennial Nader is on the ballot in my state.

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The Atheist
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quote:
Originally posted by beza:
Yes, so unlike all those wonderful, sensitive guys the Kennedys have produced over the years. You want to know why people vote for the likes of McCain and Bush? Because they look at the likes of you howling for the Democrats and think what a bunch of patronising snobs. They might give me a slightly bigger welfare payout but at least they don't look down my nose at me because I drink beer. Carter and Clinton won because they realise nobody likes a smartarse. We live in a world were most people prefer sport to attending piano recitals - get over it.

Ah, finally. Confirmation that Rep voters are really fucking thick.

Thanks!

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
What are the chances of a third party candidate entering the race?

About 100% give or take 0%. I think the typical ballot ranges from 6 or 7 to about 20 candidates nationwide.

The real question is what are the chances of any third party candidate getting any electoral college votes at all. And that is small.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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tclune
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Just a couple of minor points about this NY Times article. First, why is Palin referred to as "Ms. Palin," especially given that Clinton is referred to as "Mrs. Clinton?" And second, when did "Ms" get a period? We MCPs aren't on the mailing list for such things...

--Tom Clune

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
First, why is Palin referred to as "Ms. Palin," especially given that Clinton is referred to as "Mrs. Clinton?" And second, when did "Ms" get a period?

Since every other woman in the story, other than Clinton, gets a Ms., I'd say Mrs. Clinton is either deference to a strongly held personal preference by Mrs. Clinton, or more likely a minor editorial gaffe.

And, AFAIK, every style guide I've ever used gives Ms. a period.

(Fascinating story, btw. Thanks for the link.)

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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beza
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quote:
Originally posted by The Atheist:
quote:
Originally posted by beza:
Yes, so unlike all those wonderful, sensitive guys the Kennedys have produced over the years. You want to know why people vote for the likes of McCain and Bush? Because they look at the likes of you howling for the Democrats and think what a bunch of patronising snobs. They might give me a slightly bigger welfare payout but at least they don't look down my nose at me because I drink beer. Carter and Clinton won because they realise nobody likes a smartarse. We live in a world were most people prefer sport to attending piano recitals - get over it.

Ah, finally. Confirmation that Rep voters are really fucking thick.

Thanks!

Actually, I'm English and socialist in my political leanings. I certainly have no axe to grind for Republicanism, but you perfectly illustrate what Labour in the UK and Republicans in the US discovered years ago - that to win you have to win over voters from the opposition. Calling them thick, vulgar etc etc just isn't going to do that. Besides, Hollywood has phalanxes of dumbos pledging their support for the Dems, does it not?
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Nicolemr
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quote:
And then there's this insane secessionist story, which I hope you're familiar with. Reportedly, Sarah Palin and her husband were members of the Alaska Independence Party, which seeks a vote on making Alaska an independent nation, in the mid-1990s. Here's ABC:

And while John MCCain's motto -- as seen in a new TV add -- is "Country First," the AIP's motto is the exact opposite -- "Alaska First -- Alaska Always."
For the record, the McCain campaign denies Palin was ever a member of the AIP, though multiple AIP members say she was and she attended their 1994 convention.


From here.

That's... a bit disconcerting.

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Og: Thread Killer
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quote:
Originally posted by The Atheist:
I sincerely trust that all of the supporters of Sarah Palin are totally happy that should McCain croak, they will have a President with a son in law whose publicly stated life thoughts are:

"I'm a fuckin' redneck" who likes to snowboard and ride dirt bikes.

But I live to play hockey. I like to go camping and hang out with the boys, do some fishing, shoot some shit and just fuckin' chillin' I guess.
Ya fuck with me I'll kick [your] ass."

....

'

He's like how old? Geez, if that sort of vaguely drunken or stoned stuff posted on the web by a hormonally challenged teen type derails a VP or President candidacy, then you are going to need to find a monk to run.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Imaginary Friend

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There's a little more on the secessionist thing here. Surely McCain's people knew about this? Doesn't that make them nuts?

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The Atheist
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quote:
Originally posted by beza:
Actually, I'm English and socialist in my political leanings.

That makes two of us!

(I note this forum doesn't have the pint glasses, so just pretend I put it in.)

quote:
Originally posted by beza:
I certainly have no axe to grind for Republicanism, but you perfectly illustrate what Labour in the UK and Republicans in the US discovered years ago - that to win you have to win over voters from the opposition.

Couldn't agree more, winning is what elections are about.

quote:
Originally posted by beza:
Calling them thick, vulgar etc etc just isn't going to do that.

Absolutely right!

Fortunately, since I'm a Pom in Enzed talking about Seppo elections, I'd be extraodinarily surprised if whatever I said influenced even one voter in the 200,000,000 or so who will actually vote.

quote:
Originally posted by beza:
Besides, Hollywood has phalanxes of dumbos pledging their support for the Dems, does it not?

It certainly does, and to be frank, it horrifies me.

Having the chink in his armour already of being a "celebrity" candidate, Madge and plenty of others in the celebrity field are going to make Obama's job a lot harder. The fact that they can't see what a bunch os shitheads they're being annoys the piss out of me.

That said, Paris Hilton's response, whoever wrote it, was fucking brilliant!

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Choirboy
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There have been assertions that the McCain crowd may not have sufficiently vetted their candidate. I haven't really followed the story, having much bigger things going on locally at the moment. Naively, this could all be one of three things: 1) carelessness on the part of the campaign, 2) disinterest on the part of the campaign, 3) unimportant trivia. Or a mixture of all of the above.
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The Atheist
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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
He's like how old? Geez, if that sort of vaguely drunken or stoned stuff posted on the web by a hormonally challenged teen type derails a VP or President candidacy, then you are going to need to find a monk to run.

Nope. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what he said, I just thought it went beautifully with the stereotypical redneck-piece -of-shit voter in USA who are inexplicably drawn to Rep. It'll probably win them quite a number of young voters who will identify a lot more strongly with those thoughts than young intellectuals drawn to Obama "hope".

I actually know quite a few teens who wouldn't be seen dead writing crap like that. A minority, admittedly. I just think it shows pretty average parenting skills by Sarah the Chick (remembering that I'm not allowed the other one in here!) that she's brought her daughter up to be so promiscuous and stupidly unaware of contraception that she gets pregnant to a piece of white trash at age 16/17.

Aren't they fuckin' lucky they live in Alaska!!!! How come nobody's on that?

quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
And, AFAIK, every style guide I've ever used gives Ms. a period.

In countries where "period" is not routinely used, that looks especially funny.

Nice, unintentional jape.

10/10, or 20/10 if it was intentional.

quote:
Originally posted by davelarge:
There's a little more on the secessionist thing here. Surely McCain's people knew about this? Doesn't that make them nuts?

This, however, is great news.

Sarah the Extreme Lightweight is looking a better pick all the time.

Is it possible that John-Boy McCain, a long-odds punter, has just gone with a hunch bet on this stupid redneck slag from Alaska and been totally PWND by his own stupidity? God, I hope so.

Mind you, then he'd probably win on sympathy votes...

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Erin
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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
He's like how old? Geez, if that sort of vaguely drunken or stoned stuff posted on the web by a hormonally challenged teen type derails a VP or President candidacy, then you are going to need to find a monk to run.

17 or 18, which... OK, teenagers make mistakes, especially ones whose moms are on the abstinence bandwagon. But to get married at this age, because of it? I can't think of a stupider response to the situation.

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
There have been assertions that the McCain crowd may not have sufficiently vetted their candidate. I haven't really followed the story, having much bigger things going on locally at the moment. Naively, this could all be one of three things: 1) carelessness on the part of the campaign, 2) disinterest on the part of the campaign, 3) unimportant trivia. Or a mixture of all of the above.

The thing that they are blaming is the need to maintain secrecy in the process, so the vetters did not request the news stories from Palin's local paper, for example, because they were not available online and they were afraid that it would alert people to the choice. I don't know if that's true or not, but that story was coming from within the McCain campaign as I understand it.

--Tom Clune

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Eutychus
From the edge
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quote:
Originally posted by Swish:
I can only see more revelations which have the potential to derail the presidency.

It's been on the news today here that Palin is under investigation in Alaska for having used her political clout to engineer the departure of her sister's ex-husband's boss from the police force in the aftermath of a messy divorce. If true, this strikes me as much more serious than any other stuff that's come out so far.

(Although our own President is in trouble today for having allegedly demoted the police chief of Corsica for failing to prevent protesters occupying a friend's lawn).

[akkk. Evil intrusive apostrophe removed]

[ 02. September 2008, 19:03: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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moron
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quote:
Originally posted by davelarge:
Surely McCain's people knew about this? Doesn't that make them nuts?

quote:
New revelations about the Republican vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin — including her membership of a party that wants Alaskans to vote on becoming a separate country — are raising questions about how thoroughly John McCain's campaign vetted her background before adding her to the ticket.
Or maybe crazy like a fox. There are a lot of people in the hinterlands who believe they have absolutely no use for Washington DC, plus she can always plausibly say she changed her mind when she became a Republican.

The very fervor from the MSM may indicate picking Palin has someone worried...

whatever: you couldn't make this campaign up. <shakes head>

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Choirboy
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
The thing that they are blaming is the need to maintain secrecy in the process, so the vetters did not request the news stories from Palin's local paper, for example, because they were not available online and they were afraid that it would alert people to the choice.

Whether or not the campaign said such a thing, I don't know, but it apparently isn't true.
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Mogwai
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I don't want this election to end!!

Why can't they be like this in the UK?

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
LynnMagdalenCollege:
quote:
It's part of what impressed me about McCain's speech to the NAACP back in June; he started by praising Obama:
Well, what else could he say when addressing the NAACP? Obama's candidacy was the 800 pound gorilla in the room. I'm not saying that he was insincere, but he was intelligent enough to address it first at some length.

I think McCain slings less mud (so far) than some candidates in elections past. I'll be really impressed if he reins in his supporters, and doesn't let them do some sorts of White House Plumbers/Karl Rove stunts. And of course, I'd like to see the same of Obama.

McCain was actually received well, by the end of his speech - not that he won many (any?!) votes away from Obama - but I do think he's sincere in his admiration-within-limits of Obama; he's a real aisle-crossing Senator which cannot be accurately said of his opponent. That's where, for me, that's a big part of the disconnect between "I will unit the country" and his most-liberal-Senate-voting-record position; I think he's a bit unrealistic about the power of his personal charm because his policies won't unit the nation.

mt, I'm sure he wasn't behind any Obama/antichrist ads (being sans television, I don't even see these ads but I sometimes hear them on the radio; hmmmm, good use for YouTube!) in that he tried to squelch a state campaign that had racial overtones. I suspect some of it is simply because of the "Obama Nation" / "abomination" rhyme factor at work (never underestimate the power of an inescapable rhyme).

Can you find the ad you're referencing? In checking YouTube I find something clearly done by a user and I find a clip from (Glen?)Beck asking Hagee about it based on tons of received email ("no chance," says Hagee) but I don't find any RNC or McCain ads that imply a connection. Or, as Hiro's Leap postulates, do you mean "The One" ad (which is paid for by McCain) - in which case, have you completely lost any sense of irony and humor?! It's a compilation of real Obama-speaking-about-the-wonderfulness-of-Obama clips and quotes (with a little parting of the Red Sea thrown in to punch the humor) - you can't be serious? Can you? [Ultra confused] [Paranoid]
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
crap

And this is what actually pushed me to post on this thread. I like the romanticized version, mjg, but having grown up in a shockingly similar culture (so much for Alaska's uniqueness, uniquity, whatever), you're wrong. It is actually far more likely that your average redneck is of the "I didn't come from no damn monkey, God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve, and the only good nigger is a dead nigger" school of thought.
Sidestepping the redneck-as-idiot stereotypes, I think part of the dynamic is "rural self-sufficient" versus "urban dependent" and yes, one definitely finds some "rural self-sufficient" in Florida (as well as plenty of "urban dependent"); the Alaska trump card, as it were, is that there's very little "urban dependent" in Alaska, making it a more internally consistent --and thereby recognizable-- culture.

Folks think of California and think Hollywood, San Francisco, Los Angeles and completely forget that we've got a sizable "rural self-sufficient" population here, too. Farmers may not be 'rednecks' but they are "rural self-sufficient" to the core.

I suspect the American divide is much more between city-dwellers and people who know how to live off the land. IMHO. But wtf do I know?

I do get tired, however, of "Science" constantly playing their trump card - which is the definition of 'science.' Therefore anything you can't observe can't be 'science.' Personally I've known too many good scientists, from a variety of disciplines, who also believed God directed the whole thing (and with a wide range of interpretations regarding what that 'direction' looked like: some see it as directed evolution, I even know some who see it as a seven-day creation but the relevant question is from where are the days being measured? Relativity teaches us the importance of that question. I think the 'creationist' side of things simply wants kids to realize that there are legitimately a variety of ways to look at the universe and that 'science' has become a very narrow box, at least in this arena.

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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical

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Rossweisse

High Church Valkyrie
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quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Since every other woman in the story, other than Clinton, gets a Ms., I'd say Mrs. Clinton is either deference to a strongly held personal preference by Mrs. Clinton, or more likely a minor editorial gaffe. ...

NYT style is to call women "Ms.," unless they've got a better honorific (like "Dr." or "the Rev."), or express a strong preference for another honorific like "Miss" or "Mrs."

I very much doubt they'd make a mistake, editorial or otherwise, on a Clinton, although I'd expect them to call her "Sen. Clinton." She and her handlers may be going for the Everywoman Touch.

Ross

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I'm not dead yet.

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
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quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
I do get tired, however, of "Science" constantly playing their trump card - which is the definition of 'science.' Therefore anything you can't observe can't be 'science.' Personally I've known too many good scientists, from a variety of disciplines, who also believed God directed the whole thing (and with a wide range of interpretations regarding what that 'direction' looked like: some see it as directed evolution, I even know some who see it as a seven-day creation but the relevant question is from where are the days being measured? Relativity teaches us the importance of that question. I think the 'creationist' side of things simply wants kids to realize that there are legitimately a variety of ways to look at the universe and that 'science' has become a very narrow box, at least in this arena.

But they should teach science in a science class. What you're talking about it philosophy.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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Hiro's Leap

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quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
I do get tired, however, of "Science" constantly playing their trump card - which is the definition of 'science.'

To me it feels like science is used to defend decisions people were going to make anyway, but it's ignored if it goes against financial/political interests.
quote:
I think the 'creationist' side of things simply wants kids to realize that there are legitimately a variety of ways to look at the universe and that 'science' has become a very narrow box, at least in this arena.
Most people - scientists or not - would probably agree with that. The scientists on the Ship seem to. The trouble is that's not what creationists involved with schools try to do. They try to lever a non-scientific theory into science classes, using every dirty trick to do so. Last I checked the creation research institutes do virtually no published research, and spend their budgets on lobbying and PR.

Recently there was a thread about "Why are Christians better people than Atheists?", started by an atheist. I suspect he's right on many issues: most Christians I've known have high levels of personal honesty. But when it comes to intellectual honesty I'm not so sure: lots of the creationist arguments are simply manipulative.

[ 02. September 2008, 20:22: Message edited by: Hiro's Leap ]

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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Speaking of Palin's religious beliefs:

A Visit to Palin's Church.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
# 3899

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Apparently, some people are betting (literally!) that Palin will withdraw.

Anyone here betting on that one?

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
17 or 18, which... OK, teenagers make mistakes, especially ones whose moms are on the abstinence bandwagon. But to get married at this age, because of it? I can't think of a stupider response to the situation.

Leaves me thinking, not only did she not teach her daughter about contraception adequately, apparently she didn't learn about the morning after pill either.

(BTW The 'marrying at 17, are they insane ?' reponse would I suspect would be the dominant tabloid take in the UK - whereas saying, "I am keeping it - but my boyfriend is going to be involved with the baby's life, we'll marry if and when in the future we are ready" would win more kudos.)

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
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Interesting you should say that Josephine, because a very politicaly savey friend of mine is saying that he thinks that not only will she, but that that was the plan all along and she'll be replaced by someone like Condi Rice.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Lynn MagdalenCollege
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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
I do get tired, however, of "Science" constantly playing their trump card...(blah blah blah)... I think the 'creationist' side of things simply wants kids to realize that there are legitimately a variety of ways to look at the universe and that 'science' has become a very narrow box, at least in this arena.

But they should teach science in a science class. What you're talking about it philosophy.
That's a good point but they don't have mandatory philosophy classes so the broader question isn't addressed. Perhaps within the first week of the mandatory basic science class a little teaching on the question of philosophy and how it brushes up against science, including science's definition of science (or at least the current one! [Razz] [Biased] )... but I like to find the middle ground and consensus and the way for most people to get most of what they want, as opposed to, say, ME getting all of what I want.

Hiro's Leap, I may suffer from thinking better of the 'creationist movers and shakers' than they deserve; I'm not part of any such group so I can't speak to their intellectual arguments. For me, a lot of it does come down to faith and I recognize that faith is not science! (gasp) and I'm okay with not understanding all the mechanics. I believe God blesses the impulse toward scientific research (which is not to say that God blesses all scientific research; I daresay the Nazis found territory "which I did not command, nor did it come into My mind," to quote the Lord in Jeremiah 7, Jeremiah 19, and Jeremiah 32).
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
17 or 18, which... OK, teenagers make mistakes, especially ones whose moms are on the abstinence bandwagon. But to get married at this age, because of it? I can't think of a stupider response to the situation.

Leaves me thinking, not only did she not teach her daughter about contraception adequately, apparently she didn't learn about the morning after pill either.
Well, the 'morning after' pill (as an abortifacient) wouldn't be acceptable to a fervent right-to-life person. But, truth is, you have no idea what Sarah Palin did or did not teach her daughter about contraception - you presume, from the outcome, that she didn't teach her adequately. That may be the case but it may not be. I became pregnant at 17 and it certainly wasn't because my mother didn't teach me about consequences of premarital sex; I, as a teenager, simply thought "I know better."

Happily most teens manage to grow out of being teens without entirely derailing their lives. This girl is going down a more challenging track than if she'd "just said no" or made her beau use a condom, etc. (and perhaps they did; condoms have a moderately high failure rate and the only absolute guarantee against pregnancy is to avoid intercourse altogether).

For myself, I am infinitely grateful that the therapeutic abortion act had not yet passed because it would have looked like a solution to me. In truth, I don't think I would have survived my 20's if I'd managed to have an abortion at 17. It was a hard road especially for my son but he is a remarkable human being and the world is a better place for his presence (and I'm still living. Which I know is so very important to all of you [Big Grin] [Razz] ).

I like God's perspective on the matter (on many matters but certainly applicable to this one, too) - "choose life that you might live"... but it's still our choice, just as it was Bristol's choice (and mine--) to engage in sex at an immature age. There's not a thing in the world a parent can do to keep a determined teen a virgin (well, nothing legal...).

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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical

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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
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12% thinking that she will withdraw or be dropped isn't a lot. I predict that they'll brazen it out. The choice does put the Democrats in a tough position criticizing or debating with her. Damned if they get tough in demonstrating her lack of qualification, and damned if they don't. Electing someone to office is less about being qualified and more about promoting someone just like us than it used to be. The right understands that.

But this is not to say that the wing nuts aren't privately ruing the day. They may have overrated showmanship, upstaging, and pulling rabbits out of hats to the point of impetuosity. Word is out that this choice was not McCain's idea, but that of staffers who warned that neither Ridge nor Lieberman would be acceptable to The Base. As Kerry observed, this state of affairs proves that McCain is not a maverick, but a "prisoner of the right wing." These wing nuts, whose influence is gradually waning not least in the church, will sink their ship someday with their intransigence and demogogic attempts to be too clever by half. Let's hope that, when it happens, it is just a political party and not a country.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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eeGAD

Wandering Stowaway
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I wouldn't be at all surprised if this all ended up to be some type of "bait & switch". I'm willing to believe that the Republicans put Mrs. Palin's name out there as some type of statement. What that statement is, I'm not sure that I can say.

However, now that that they've made a "splash" and gotten the attention of the public away from the Democrats, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Republicans had another person waiting in the wings for when all this scrutiny on Mrs. Palin finally pushes her to far. Regardless of who it is, I'm guessing that the typical response will be something along the lines of, "Well, at least X doesn't bring with them all the controversy that Mrs. Palin did!"

eeG

Also, I would like to add my 2 cents:

Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean that I'll vote for one solely based on the fact that she's a woman. The insinuation is insulting.

Just because she appears to be very hostile to her ex-brother-in-law doesn't mean she can't be diplomatic. I certainly wouldn't want to be judged by some of the remarks I've made about my ex-sister-in-law.

Just because her daughter is dating a self proclaimed red-neck-fuck, doesn't mean that she makes foolish decisions herself. Most of us have been 17 once and know just exactly how clever or stupid we can be at that age. It has absolutely nothing to do with the parents at that point.

Just because her daughter forgot to use a condom once has nothing to do with her ability to negotiate foreign policy. Too many emotions can be found running through a 17 year old for their most important decisions/mistakes/turning points/traumas to be blamed on their parents.

I'm afraid that all this sensationalism has too far distracted from folks discussing what potential they think Mrs. Palin has, and what type of policies she would support. In short, I don't care about the soap opera, I want the political pro & con debate!

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You don't fix faith. It fixes you. - Shepherd Book

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Erin
Meaner than Godzilla
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quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
I do get tired, however, of "Science" constantly playing their trump card...(blah blah blah)... I think the 'creationist' side of things simply wants kids to realize that there are legitimately a variety of ways to look at the universe and that 'science' has become a very narrow box, at least in this arena.

But they should teach science in a science class. What you're talking about it philosophy.
That's a good point but they don't have mandatory philosophy classes so the broader question isn't addressed.
But that's not science's fault, and science should not be made to suffer by being taught alongside crackpot theories as if the two were equal.

quote:
But, truth is, you have no idea what Sarah Palin did or did not teach her daughter about contraception - you presume, from the outcome, that she didn't teach her adequately. That may be the case but it may not be. I became pregnant at 17 and it certainly wasn't because my mother didn't teach me about consequences of premarital sex; I, as a teenager, simply thought "I know better."
I have not had children of my own, but I did have a teenaged stepdaughter a while back, so I am slightly qualified to say that in this day and age, it is beyond irresponsible for parents to NOT have their daughters on birth control from the moment a pregnancy is possible. My mom did it with me and my sister, I did it with my stepdaughter, and if I have to go behind my brother's and sister's backs with my nieces to get them on the pill, that is what I will do. They WILL have sex, anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts. Any parent who does not equip them to deal with this is a negligent parent.

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Commandment number one: shut the hell up.

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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
As I've said several times now, it's not the killing so much, as the doing it for fun that bothers me in a Vice Presidential candidate.

You've admitted that the deed needs to be done. So what's wrong with letting people do it who enjoy it, and who will even pay the government for the privilege, rather than who detest it and need to be paid?

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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The Atheist
Arrogant Bastard
# 12067

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quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
I don't want this election to end!!

Why can't they be like this in the UK?

Damn right.

If you want a boring election campaign, you need to check ours out. An election at the same time as USA and the only minor hilarioty we've had so far is a boring white twat comparing himself to barack Obama.

And failing miserably as everyone takes the piss out a wannabe dork comparing himself to the most popular politician on the planet.

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Choirboy
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# 9659

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quote:
Originally posted by eeGAD:
I wouldn't be at all surprised if this all ended up to be some type of "bait & switch". I'm willing to believe that the Republicans put Mrs. Palin's name out there as some type of statement.

I sincerely doubt it, and I doubt she will step down. Admitting to it being a 'mistake' would be a killer for the campaign. And the final nomination will be made at the convention within the next 48 hours or so. There are legal requirements about fixing the ticket so states can get on with ballots, etc. The election is only two months away.
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Alogon
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# 5513

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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
it is beyond irresponsible for parents to NOT have their daughters on birth control from the moment a pregnancy is possible. My mom did it with me and my sister, I did it with my stepdaughter, and if I have to go behind my brother's and sister's backs with my nieces to get them on the pill, that is what I will do. They WILL have sex, anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts.

Is this really what it takes? Whatever-- but you've just explained one more fact of life to this amazed gayboy. Not only did I keep it strictly in my pants all through high school and most of the way through college; but when I didn't, I discovered lots of ways to have sex with no danger of making babies. These are all available to hets as well. Maybe the problem is a defect of imagination. I'm tempted to say they have it so easy, but at least getting knocked up or knocking someone else up is one worry we don't have.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lynn MagdalenCollege
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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I have not had children of my own, but I did have a teenaged stepdaughter a while back, so I am slightly qualified to say that in this day and age, it is beyond irresponsible for parents to NOT have their daughters on birth control from the moment a pregnancy is possible. My mom did it with me and my sister, I did it with my stepdaughter, and if I have to go behind my brother's and sister's backs with my nieces to get them on the pill, that is what I will do. They WILL have sex, anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts. Any parent who does not equip them to deal with this is a negligent parent.

Erin, I respect you immensely and you have every right to your opinion (as I do to mine) and I thoroughly disagree with this stance. I could argue from my position that *this* position is abusive because, instead of teaching responsibility and restraint (things we all need to eventually learn in order to survive), it gives tacit permission for and enables destructive behavior.

But I figure you're unlikely to change your mind and I'm unlikely to change mine and that's okay. I will point out, however, that a sizable percentage WILL have sex, as you say, but it's not the majority and it only becomes the majority when society expects them to be humping. I was very much in the minority, back in 1969, to be 16-17 and sexually active. You think the species has changed since then? No, the social expectations have.

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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
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quote:
Originally posted by eeGAD:
I'm afraid that all this sensationalism has too far distracted from folks discussing what potential they think Mrs. Palin has, and what type of policies she would support. In short, I don't care about the soap opera, I want the political pro & con debate!

Part of the problem is that she doesn't seem to be on record as having opinions on policies that would be relevant on a national level.

Providing me with another reason to be terrified of a McCain presidency. I actually think McCain would have made a decent president if he'd been elected in 2000; I don't think he'd have gotten us nearly so deeply into this mess. But now that we're here, I don't think he can get us out. And he's spent the last eight years playing vicious Rovian politics, so I don't have any idea what policies he would actually support and what he's just saying. I'd like to have some idea what the person I elect would actually do (or at least try to do) in office. With McCain and Palin, I have no idea.

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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
eeGAD

Wandering Stowaway
# 4675

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quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
quote:
Originally posted by eeGAD:
I wouldn't be at all surprised if this all ended up to be some type of "bait & switch". I'm willing to believe that the Republicans put Mrs. Palin's name out there as some type of statement.

I sincerely doubt it, and I doubt she will step down. Admitting to it being a 'mistake' would be a killer for the campaign. And the final nomination will be made at the convention within the next 48 hours or so. There are legal requirements about fixing the ticket so states can get on with ballots, etc. The election is only two months away.

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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I've been wondering if this might turn into another McGovern-Eagleton situation.

I remember my Republican mother's comment at the time that the problem was McGovern not checking into his running mate's background thoroughly enough. (If she were still alive I'm sure she would think the McGovern-Pailin situation was TOTALLY different!)

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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eeGAD

Wandering Stowaway
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Blast it! I hate my computer right now! Apologies for the blank post earlier.

What I meant to say was:

quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
There are legal requirements about fixing the ticket so states can get on with ballots, etc. The election is only two months away.

OK. I did not know that.

Erin: I feel very much the way you do regarding arming teenage girls about the sex they are more than likely going to have. Please feel free to forward to me any manifesto on the subject that you might wish to empart on the 2 littlest GAD, who will sooner than later become said sexually active teens. And I'm going to make sure that they are empowered and informed. My Mom raised me that way. And my sister too. But that didn't stop her at 17 to decide that just this once it would be OK without a condom. Ask her today (she's in her 40s) and she'll tell you that it was, by far, the worst decision of her entire life. Her teenage pregnancy was not a reflection of my Mom's strong or weak parenting, but of my sister's hubris. She made her decision based on emotion, not intellect. My Mom did everything that you and I seem to agree was right for a Mom to do, but my sister still managed to get pregnant.

saysay: So the press is discussing all this drama because there's not enough substance to debate Mrs. Palin and policy? *shudder*

eeG

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You don't fix faith. It fixes you. - Shepherd Book

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Josephine

Orthodox Belle
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quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
I'm sure he wasn't behind any Obama/antichrist ads (being sans television, .... Or, as Hiro's Leap postulates, do you mean "The One" ad (which is paid for by McCain) - in which case, have you completely lost any sense of irony and humor?! It's a compilation of real Obama-speaking-about-the-wonderfulness-of-Obama clips and quotes (with a little parting of the Red Sea thrown in to punch the humor) - you can't be serious? Can you?



You might want to read this discussion of the "One" ad at time.com, and see if you still think it's just innocuous humor about a Messiah complex. Could be. I'm not sure.

According to this discussion of internet searches on Obama Antichrist, most people looking for those search terms head over to Snopes.

Still, the possibility that certain right-wing politicos are sending a subtle, between-the-lines message to their base that Obama is evil doesn't seem entirely implausible.

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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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My son already knows most of "the talk," and he's seven! (okay, we haven't quite got to condoms) But if he had been a girl, I wouldn't be putting him on the pill because that's got some potentially major side effects--too major for putting someone on, just on the off chance they go off the rails one night. I'm thinking a walletful of condoms instead, something like that. Plus absintence teaching.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
I have not had children of my own, but I did have a teenaged stepdaughter a while back, so I am slightly qualified to say that in this day and age, it is beyond irresponsible for parents to NOT have their daughters on birth control from the moment a pregnancy is possible. My mom did it with me and my sister, I did it with my stepdaughter, and if I have to go behind my brother's and sister's backs with my nieces to get them on the pill, that is what I will do. They WILL have sex, anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts. Any parent who does not equip them to deal with this is a negligent parent.

Erin, I respect you immensely and you have every right to your opinion (as I do to mine) and I thoroughly disagree with this stance. I could argue from my position that *this* position is abusive because, instead of teaching responsibility and restraint (things we all need to eventually learn in order to survive), it gives tacit permission for and enables destructive behavior.


Can't she learn responsibility and restraint with a Gap credit card? Does she have to learn it at such great risk?

I agree with Erin's stance 100%. The last thing I would want my daughter to do is trust her body, her future, and the future of her children to a drunk boy bumbling around with a condom.

I would first preach all the good reasons for waiting until she's older, and I believe their are many. Then I would make sure that she knew sex comes with responsibility and that if she decides she simply can't wait then she'd darn well better get herself to a clinic for the pill or an injection. Then I would hope she would add a barrier method for extra security and STD protection.

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Presleyterian
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# 1915

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Exactly. To be honest, I question the pro-life bona fides of any politician or policymaker who opposes Erin's position. When the rubber meets the road -- pun intended -- "liberal" parents who get their kids contraceptives do more to prevent abortion than all the clinic protesters combined.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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I'm neither a policy-maker nor a protester, but have you no response to the issue of side effects? Hormones are pretty powerful stuff to be screwing around with from puberty onward. In my family there'd better be more reason than simply "Who knows, she might do it, and the guy might be too drunk at the time to manage a condom."

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged



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