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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: The political junkie POTUS prediction thread
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Rand was a totally self-centered atheist who despised the music of Beethoven, smoked incessantly, ruined the lives of her disciples, and wrote really bad novels filled with windy speechifying. I think both she and her philosophy are loathesome.
You are far too kind to her, especially about her novels. Her books make mid-period Heinlein look mild-mannered and self-deprecatingly calm.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
It rather reminds me of Yeats' poem, Why Should Not Old Men Be Mad?
Evidence this thread has some reason to exist.
(Sincere thanks, Tom. He had a way with words.)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I'd probably end up voting Cynthia McKinney if not Obama (if I had a vote).
Not if you had lived in Cynthia's congressional district, you wouldn't...
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
quote:
You are far too kind to her, especially about her novels. Her books make mid-period Heinlein look mild-mannered and self-deprecatingly calm.
Not sure I entirely agree. A gave up Atlas Shrugged when it got too hilarious even to be a spoof. But that was after quite a long while, and I have a record of giving up long books.
She didn't have the discipline to be a novelist, and I assume she told all editors to piss off.
But I think she had a lot of writing talent.
[ 08. September 2008, 17:04: Message edited by: anteater ]
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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GoodCatholicLad
Shipmate
# 9231
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Rand was a totally self-centered atheist who despised the music of Beethoven, smoked incessantly, ruined the lives of her disciples, and wrote really bad novels filled with windy speechifying. I think both she and her philosophy are loathesome.
You are far too kind to her, especially about her novels. Her books make mid-period Heinlein look mild-mannered and self-deprecatingly calm.
I thought I was the only one who loathed Rand. The Fountainhead was really REALLY bad. Try reading it out loud without laughing. The idea that some how quality, tradition, attention to detail and craftsmanship of a building were a bad thing had me and my fellow design students howling with laughter and that these cheesy prefab, cheap looking monstrosities she championed were morally and aesthetically superior
was outrageous. At least that's how they came off in the movie. Frank Lloyd Wright must have been mortified to think he was her inspiration for the Roark character. I thought I read that The Fountainhead was going to be remade.
Posts: 1234 | From: San Francisco California | Registered: Mar 2005
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Perhaps after a few terms of good government we will have to put up with Americans claiming that they are Scandinavia-on-the-Potomac and that we Europeans are nasty neo-liberals. Who knows?
From your lips to God's ears.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Atheist:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Palin's creationism and fundie views are not playing well this side of the pond.
Appears to be going ok on the side of the pond where the voters are.
From a 6.4% deficit to 1% lead in the week since she's been picked says it's working so far.
Post convention bounce. These erode in about two weeks. You can expect a fair amount of regression to the mean, as it were.
Just look below those polls at the tracking data; see the big bump in Obama's numbers at convention time. The same thing will happen to McCain. Always does, year after year.
Conventions in the end are a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
Conventions in the end are a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Cockburn!
(This thread still has potential, I say. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) )
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
Conventions in the end are a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Cockburn!
Shakespeare!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Shakespeare!
Is there no post you don't immediately reply to?
I understand.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Shakespeare!
Is there no post you don't immediately reply to?
Come now, I don't respond immediately to every post! That would be silly!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
The airy dismissals of libertarianism seem to me to reveal that their authors don't really know much about the philosophy. It's not anti-charity, and there's far more to it than the (for heaven's sake) graduated income tax. It's about fairness, privacy, equality, and personal responsibility.
A flat tax is, as it happens, a lot fairer than our present Byzantine system, which only benefits tax lawyers, accountants, and the members of Congress who accept campaign contributions in order to rewrite the law to benefit special interest groups.
I personally think I could find better uses for my time and money than gathering documents and adding up figures and then handing everything over to the accountant to figure out. I suspect that if we weren't trying to use the federal tax system to make social policy, this country would be a happier place.
I'm not a hardcore libertarian -- I'm definitely soft around the edges -- but I don't see that it's any worse to waste my vote on a third-party candidate than to waste it on a warmonger or a tax-and-spend leftist, a book-banner or a plagiarist. YMMV.
Ross
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Come now, I don't respond immediately to every post! That would be silly!
I've conceded before and it still pains me to be ignorant but is this all about page hits?
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mjg:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Come now, I don't respond immediately to every post! That would be silly!
I've conceded before and it still pains me to be ignorant but is this all about page hits?
You know, if you're mad at me, or I've upset you or something, you can just call me to Hell. I've coped with Hell calls before.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You know, if you're mad at me, or I've upset you or something, you can just call me to Hell. I've coped with Hell calls before.
Sorry, I've allowed myself to be misunderstood.
Bruce Cockburn remains a potential point of agreement between us.
IMO he's gotten past things you and I haven't.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
That, and on a bad day he plays guitar 1E99999 times better than I do on my best.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
saw some footage of our Sarah on the tube today.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
she's a different person than the one I defended on this thread earlier.
erase all of that. Geez she's grossing me out. so easy to sell out when the stakes get high. bah.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That, and on a bad day he plays guitar 1E99999 times better than I do on my best.
We all have bad days, except, apparently some Orthodox.
That could be another thread.
And Simon may smile somewhere.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
saw some footage of our Sarah on the tube today.
she's a different person than the one I defended on this thread earlier.
erase all of that. Geez she's grossing me out. so easy to sell out when the stakes get high. bah.
Comet, I'm curious - different how? I was prepared to be reluctantly charmed by her convention speech, but it struck me as a pretty straight-forward salvo in the culture wars. (To be sure, attacking the opposition is the traditional VP role, but then it's hardly a refreshing, maverick choice, is it?)
Since all I've heard from her has been pretty much along the same lines, I'd be interested to learn what sort of things you heard that disappointed you, or what you would have expected to hear but didn't.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Obama interviewed on Countdown with Keith Olbermann, MSNBC - tonight.
Be there or be square.
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--Formerly: Gort--
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
According to Wikipedia, his employer at the time was "the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland (Roseland, West Pullman, and Riverdale) on Chicago's far South Side.[12][14]"
So you're telling eight Catholic parishes that they're part of the "liberal side of things" and that they really shouldn't be hiring anyone to do this work, it should be all-volunteer? ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) I'm familiar with the attitude. Some people (many of the same people, I suspect) also think that church musicians shouldn't be paid for what they do, either.
DCP's "About Us" page - I'm not seeing anything about eight Catholic parishes (but there are indeed some very socialist Catholic parishes; have you not run into that?) so I don't know if they were an early incarnation of this group or they've dropped out or what.
I do believe a workman is worthy of his hire and a great deal of the most important work we do is unpaid. Mothering, fathering, befriending - sheeesh, if only I were paid for my very real work with multiples! Very time intensive, no return but the knowledge that these friends are loved by God and therefore deserving of my love and time (my greatest treasure at this point). Church musicians are an interesting phenomenon - I've known many paid and many unpaid and I find there's a qualitatively different kind of investment in the church on the part of paid musicians. Every church community has to figure out what will work for them-- I think the question of volunteer versus paid often comes up against a similar dynamic. I don't know the DCP, other than reading their website: quote:
DCP functions as an organized entity through which social justice missions of the church and its members is integrated with the technical skills and methods required to promote change via the public arena. Our operational methodology is focused upon leadership development, research and analysis of issues, and the creation of public forums or events for direct action on issues that are deemed important through a collective decision making process.
The unique principles on which DCP was founded are:
- Institutionally Based
- Systematically Recruits & Trains Community Leaders
- Multi-Issue Organizing
- Collectively Led
DCP Committees
Area-Wide Task Force (AWTF)
Red Line Oversight Committee (ROC)
Challengers - Local Leaders for Change
The focus is very much on developing leaders from within the community - it may well be that if you want to graduate into serious Chicago politics, this is the kind of place you need to start in the South Side. I don't know - do you? But from reading their own website, this is not an agenda-free group (stops, scratches head, realizes that there is no such thing as an agenda-free group) - well, at least consider their agenda before painting them as Mother Teresa, Chicago branch.
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
Posts: 6263 | From: California | Registered: Nov 2005
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Obama didn't enter local grassroots community organization to graduate into "serious Chicago politics". He has explained that he was profoundly enfluenced by the civil rights movement of the '60s and sought to experience that same level of direct, hands-on community involvement to effect improvement in the condition of people's lives. You can still see this approach in the organization of his presidential campaign; the direct appeal for citizens to get involved personally through small internet donations and volunteer work. For Palin and Giuliani to deride his "community organizer" experience is beneath contempible.
There is nothing sinister about learning to work the system from the ground up. Far more preferable than assuming McCain's silver-spoon, son-of-admirals, drunken scholastic record at Annapolis gives him insight into the concerns of the working class. McCain blew his advantage just like Bush Jr. did. I have no more faith in this shitty fighter-pilot's resume (who destroyed millions of dollars in goverment equipment ) than I do in Bush's ludicrous military experience. They are both so disconnected from the average American citizen it's laughable.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
In its pure form, Libertarianism is subject to the same criticism as Socialism - "a constitution for a commonwealth of angels" (Is that Churchill? I can't find a source.)
Nonetheless, it's fascinating watching core Libertarian concepts like carbon offsets become mainstream, and no one batting an eye. Back fifteen years or so, the notion of "selling the right to pollute" was viewed as rank lunacy by most.
I have to thank Any Rand for one thing - when I read Atlas Shrugged, I spotted where she palmed the card, and it immunized me against that particular silly notion. (That being self-made wealthy makes a man a saint ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) )
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
There is nothing sinister about learning to work the system from the ground up. Far more preferable than assuming McCain's silver-spoon, son-of-admirals, drunken scholastic record at Annapolis gives him insight into the concerns of the working class. McCain blew his advantage just like Bush Jr. did. I have no more faith in this shitty fighter-pilot's resume (who destroyed millions of dollars in goverment equipment ) than I do in Bush's ludicrous military experience. They are both so disconnected from the average American citizen it's laughable.
Do you really believe that crap? I am not going to vote for McCain, and I don't share his views on policy. But he is a man who has placed service to our country at the center of his life. We should be able to honor that. The sad state of our politics is reflected in our inability to acknowledge that there is something fine in those with whom we disagree. ISTM that all of the people who are running for high office this time out are admirable. We ought to celebrate that.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
There is something quite fine in McCain's service. But that doesn't change the fact that he is a son of privilege and Obama is not. It kills me that Obama is painted as an elitist by the son and grandson of admirals. Bush's good ol' boy crap has always been rather irksome, given that he went to Andover and Yale and that his father was a millionaire before going into politics (back when a million bought you more than a crappy McMansion built too close to the property line).
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Do you really believe that crap? ...
Specifically, what "crap"?
quote:
I am not going to vote for McCain, and I don't share his views on policy. But he is a man who has placed service to our country at the center of his life. We should be able to honor that.
I give honor where it is due. McCain's military service record is by default honorable, but as a refererence for honorable political service, it fails. See the Keating 5 scandal. I'm a Viet Nam veteran who served at the same time McCain did. I feel no need to claim that experience as somehow trumping objections to my political view. quote:
The sad state of our politics is reflected in our inability to acknowledge that there is something fine in those with whom we disagree.
What exactly is fine about McCain's politics? His proven support of the failed Bush administration? His use of Rove FUD tactics? quote:
ISTM that all of the people who are running for high office this time out are admirable. We ought to celebrate that.
Thanks for the heart-felt expression of opinion, but I think the stakes in this election allow for a bit of voter cynicism.
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--Formerly: Gort--
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
well, I cannot say that especially Ms Palin is admirable. I felt so ashamed for her in that convention speech with it's sneering and lies. Nothing whatsoever to admire, I''m sorry.
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
She's proving to be a liar and a fake and seems a potentially dangerous person to have on the White House leadership team. But the Republicans got themselves a cute little attack dog to "energize the base." This week she's earning her keep, going around to the battleground states making the same speech. I can't wait to see the VP candidate debates next week. I hope Joe Biden serves her up on a platter.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Correction; the VP candidates' debate isn't until Oct. 2. It's Palin's first TV interview that is later this month.
[ 09. September 2008, 05:24: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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The Atheist
Arrogant Bastard
# 12067
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
Post convention bounce. These erode in about two weeks. You can expect a fair amount of regression to the mean, as it were.
Just look below those polls at the tracking data; see the big bump in Obama's numbers at convention time. The same thing will happen to McCain. Always does, year after year.
Conventions in the end are a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Methinks you're in denial.
Even 24 hours later, the lead is out to 2.9% and McCain hasn't led for five months. Post-convention bounce is part of it, but they've wiped Obama's lead in minutes. If post-convention bounce is all it is, then you'd expect both to have cancelled each other out at worst. It's now significantly more than that.
Seriously bad sign.
I notice the Enquirer seems to have had its pages cut off...
Posts: 2044 | From: Auckland | Registered: Nov 2006
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
The airy dismissals of libertarianism seem to me to reveal that their authors don't really know much about the philosophy. It's not anti-charity, and there's far more to it than the (for heaven's sake) graduated income tax. It's about fairness, privacy, equality, and personal responsibility.
A flat tax is, as it happens, a lot fairer than our present Byzantine system, which only benefits tax lawyers, accountants, and the members of Congress who accept campaign contributions in order to rewrite the law to benefit special interest groups.
I personally think I could find better uses for my time and money than gathering documents and adding up figures and then handing everything over to the accountant to figure out. I suspect that if we weren't trying to use the federal tax system to make social policy, this country would be a happier place.
I'm not a hardcore libertarian -- I'm definitely soft around the edges -- but I don't see that it's any worse to waste my vote on a third-party candidate than to waste it on a warmonger or a tax-and-spend leftist, a book-banner or a plagiarist. YMMV.
Ross
You know, it would be more convincing when you claimed that libertarianism is about more than just complaining about income tax if you didn't spend two paragraphs out of a four paragraph post complaining about it.
The basic objections to libertarianism are actually the sort that a sensible right wing person would make. Take recall notices. Now I have a small child I spend quite a lot of time in shops that sell things for babies. Quite often there is a sign prominently displayed near the till explaining that a certain product is unsafe in some way and should be returned and a full refund will be given. This is because consumer protection legislation tends to frown on products which could cause harm to small children. Such legislation - and it is ubiquitous - makes us all a lot safer. Now libertarianism is not merely opposed to such legislation as unnecessary but regards it as oppressive. Given the choice between passing a law which imposes burdens on business and a small child choking to death on a piece of plastic libertarians opt unerringly for the dead toddler as the price of freedom. As, IME, libertarians tend not to be bad and horrible people I can only deduce that they haven't really thought things through.
It's probably worth mentioning at this point that Lord Young, who served as Secretary of State for Trade and Industry under Margaret Thatcher remarks in his memoirs that an effective regulatory framework is necessary for the flourishing of capitalism. I disagree with Lord Young about rather a lot but I don't think the opinion of a former Cabinet Minister and successful business man on the flourishing of capitalism is negligible.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:
The sad state of our politics is reflected in our inability to acknowledge that there is something fine in those with whom we disagree.
What exactly is fine about McCain's politics?
Perhaps I misunderstood you. What part of "McCain's silver-spoon, son-of-admirals, drunken scholastic record at Annapolis" do you consider to be a reflection of his politics?
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
Do you mean "Which part of his politics reflects his silver-spoon, etc.?" If so, that would be his inability to name how many homes he owns and his apparent disregard for those who struggle to maintain even one. His war-mongering "win-at-any-cost" suggestion that we could be in Iraq for another 100 years and his legendary volcanic temper (which seems to be under medical sedation of late). Shall I list more?
Now, be so kind as to answer my question: quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Do you really believe that crap? ...
Specifically, what "crap"?
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
I give honor where it is due. McCain's military service record is by default honorable, but as a refererence for honorable political service, it fails. See the Keating 5 scandal. I'm a Viet Nam veteran who served at the same time McCain did. I feel no need to claim that experience as somehow trumping objections to my political view.
What about Obama? He's not perfect and, I would argue, more imperfect than McCain.
quote:
What exactly is fine about McCain's politics? His proven support of the failed Bush administration? His use of Rove FUD tactics?
What failed Bush administration? That's a left-wing catch-phrase that is simply not true. One may disagree with his policies but that does not make them failures. You can say the earth is flat all day long and it will still be round. Thus also with the Bush administration.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alfred E. Neuman
What? Me worry?
# 6855
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Posted
The 28% of Americans who approve of Bush's performance agree with you.
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--Formerly: Gort--
Posts: 12954 | Registered: May 2004
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
Now, be so kind as to answer my question: quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Do you really believe that crap? ...
Specifically, what "crap"?
The whole absurd rant that I quoted originally. I didn't realize that placing a paragraph in bold before my remark would create so much uncertainty in my intent. Sorry to be so obscure.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Atheist:
Methinks you're in denial.
Even 24 hours later, the lead is out to 2.9% and McCain hasn't led for five months. Post-convention bounce is part of it, but they've wiped Obama's lead in minutes. If post-convention bounce is all it is, then you'd expect both to have cancelled each other out at worst. It's now significantly more than that.
Methinks you don't know as much about how this works as you think.
First, the national polling is meaningless, because we don't elect the president by popular vote. You have to look at how the candidates are polling state by state. If you look at the state by state polling, Obama is still comfortably ahead in electoral college votes.
Second, since the parties didn't hold their conventions simultaneously, the post-convention bounces don't cancel each other out. First Obama gets his, then McCain gets his, and that's where we are right now. McCain is up right now because his bounce hasn't come down yet. But it will; that's why it's called a bounce. The thing to look at is the numbers that will come out next week, which will show whether either of them has managed to hold onto post-convention gains.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
What failed Bush administration? That's a left-wing catch-phrase that is simply not true.
In your view, which policies have succeeded?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Atheist:
Methinks you're in denial.
Even 24 hours later, the lead is out to 2.9% and McCain hasn't led for five months. [snip]
We'll see where we are in two weeks, or as soon after that that someone runs a decent poll. But what are you going to believe - a transient event with a lot of media splash or five months of consistent polling results?
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
(BTW, Gildas: it's kind of scary people remember threads as long as they do. Heaven forbid I'd have any serious influence here. )
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
In your view, which policies have succeeded?
I have little idea which of his policies will ultimately be judged 'successful', or even what the word really means.
However, the case could be made he's done what he intended to particularly in regard to Iraq. Against remarkable (and some quite legitimate) opposition he's overthrown the Hussein dynasty and kept a huge military force on the ground there, and it's not too much to suggest it was done damn near singlehandedly (nationally, with W driving it). I respect the 'coalition of the willing' for their immense sacrifices but does anyone really believe all this would have taken place without Bush's dogged determination?
Love him or hate him, he's stuck to his guns.
(Sorry.)
Whether or not 'history' ultimately looks favorably on his behavior there are many people in Iraq right now who no longer fear Saddam or his sons. It's not inconceivable in a decade or two it might be something somewhat approximating a 'democracy', instead of a thuggishly led dictatorship.
Some might call that 'success' although I'm reluctant to use those kinds of words without qualification.
What I am more confident of is there's a zeitgeist of 'Bush bad' which may not always hold sway.
Whatever: I'll go to my grave glad I never voted for the guy.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
In your view, which policies have succeeded?
Taking banks into public ownership has halted the slide in share values of financial corporations.
Nationalistion and government control of business obviously work for Republicans.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Taking from the less well-off and giving to the more well-off always works well for Republicans.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Taking banks into public ownership has halted the slide in share values of financial corporations.
Nationalistion and government control of business obviously work for Republicans.
I'll admit my knowledge of the whole Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac affair is not the best. However, hasn't the government been taking failed financial institutions into receivership for years? Isn't that basically what it's doing here? Of course, one could argue, as I understand it, that it was the Democrats who forced these two giants to back riskier loans to those who were not qualified thereby triggering the whole problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
The 28% of Americans who approve of Bush's performance agree with you.
At least he's more or less twice as popular as the Democratic Congress!
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
At least he's more or less twice as popular as the Democratic Congress!
Apples and oranges comparison. Some folks are upset with Congress because they have failed to push to restore civil liberties and end the war in Iraq, and failing to address health care. Others rate them negatively because they don't like Democrats.
But the 80% of the country that rates Bush badly all agree on why.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
At least he's more or less twice as popular as the Democratic Congress!
Mostly because the Democratic Congress isn't impeaching Bush. The right-wing doesn't like it because it's Democratic and the left-wing doesn't like it because it's supine. Bush is always going to have the 28% crazification factor behind him. But the Democratic Congress is not pleasing anyone because it's sitting on its thumb and thus not appeasing the Democratic equivalents or even the centre.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
In your view, which policies have succeeded?
His decision to quit golf and focus on his day job out of respect for the service people in Iraq could be painted as a good decision. At least the man was doing what he's paid for.
Oh, hang on...
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
At least he's more or less twice as popular as the Democratic Congress!
And when exactly in some 230+ years of its existence was Congress EVER popular? Lots of people like their individual Representatives and Senators, but think the rest of the nation elects idiots to the place.
I don't know if distaste for the legislative branch is a purely American foible, but here, at least, it was ever thus.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
I don't know if distaste for the legislative branch is a purely American foible, but here, at least, it was ever thus.
The last best hope?
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Gort:
The 28% of Americans who approve of Bush's performance agree with you.
At least he's more or less twice as popular as the Democratic Congress!
New Yorker, once again you have completely missed the point. The Democratic Congress has, at great personal sacrifice, united the country to an unprecedented degree...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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