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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
leo
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It's surprising anyone applied for them.
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Custard
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Well, all except one have been announced, and that one only comes in near the end of term.

It's not in the least surprising that people applied for them (because oddly enough I'm right on what's going on) - it'd have been surprising if you applied for them though, leo, or if you got them having applied. No offence intended.

What's more, there have been high quality applicants (and appointments) for all the posts, which of course
a) weren't as many as the newspapers said there would be
b) were more than the number of people who left, because Wycliffe is still growing.

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It's surprising anyone applied for them.

Not really it is an college in Oxford with all the kudos that has around it and I would imagine tutorships in theological colleges are hard to come by . Some applicants would be put off, others might want the challenge, some might think it is a storm in a tea cup, others might want to work with Turnbull and some like might consider Turnbull will be gone within a year or so.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Well, all except one have been announced, and that one only comes in near the end of term.

It's not in the least surprising that people applied for them (because oddly enough I'm right on what's going on) - it'd have been surprising if you applied for them though, leo, or if you got them having applied. No offence intended.

What's more, there have been high quality applicants (and appointments) for all the posts, which of course
a) weren't as many as the newspapers said there would be
b) were more than the number of people who left, because Wycliffe is still growing.

I wouldn't sacrifice my integrity.

But I'm surprised people would sacrifice their careers up to the possibly risk of the principal turning on them at some later date.

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Custard
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Is there any evidence whatsoever for Richard being capricious?

OK, I've only known him for a year or so as a principal and neighbour, but I certainly haven't seen any sign of capriciousness. Principle, yes. Honesty, yes. Willingness to forgive, yes. Respect for people who disagree with him politely, yes. Publicly badmouthing people who disagree with him, no. Capriciousness or turning on people? No.

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:

But I'm surprised people would sacrifice their careers up to the possibly risk of the principal turning on them at some later date.

I think this is very unlikely to occur to those who are his appointments since they will feel obligated to him (he employed them) and he will feel obligated to them (they are getting him out of staffing problem). He will have to be a really bad manager for things to go wrong with new members of staff within a year or so.

The biggest problem for Wycliffe will be the hit to it's reputation and if that changes the number of students coming to the college. Less students will mean less money which means the cost of staff becomes a problem. This autumn Wycliffe will have to have a charm offensive to the church with a story saying what the problems were and it will have to be the truth. The story will also have to say that the issues have been resolved and Wycliffe is going forward to a dynamic future.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
This autumn Wycliffe will have to have a charm offensive to the church with a story saying what the problems were and it will have to be the truth.

That doesn't sound a very easy combination. The resolution of the disciplinary action against Dr Elaine Storkey, following the retraction by The Guardian, looks to be a real key. I think the time taken to resolve that is in some ways encouraging, because it suggests some very necessary thoroughness and care, but the continuing uncertainty is hurtful in many ways. The impact the decision will have on both the reputation of the college and the ongoing personal reputations of Richard Turnbull and Elaine Storkey remains to be seen. That decision looks to be very important, as does its public presentation. The Hall Council had better get that right first of all.

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
The biggest problem for Wycliffe will be the hit to it's reputation and if that changes the number of students coming to the college.

I disagree.

The biggest problem will be keeping the college broadly evangelical rather than becoming heavily conservative evangelical. There are plenty of students out there (I've spoken to several recently) who read these articles and go to Wycliffe because of them, either to support Richard Turnbull or because they think that Wycliffe becoming more conservative is a good thing (I've argued it isn't, though it is becoming more open, accessible and inviting to conservatives, and I stand by that). Thus numbers should stay up.

But this press coverage may well put open evangelical applicants off (for wrong reasons).

Yes, I agree that the manner of the resolution of the alleged Turnbull / Storkey argument is important.

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Nightlamp
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I was thinking about the reputation of Wycliffe with bishops and the like since they do have the power to discourage people from going to any particular college.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
I was thinking about the reputation of Wycliffe with bishops and the like since they do have the power to discourage people from going to any particular college.

If they're seen to be going in a more conservative direction, they may well pick up applicants from other sections of the church. Apparently, some Stict Baptist churches prefer to send ministerial trainees to Oak Hill because of it's stance and reputation over things like women in ministry rather than the mainstream Baptist colleges. (Which other Baptists find ironic given that one of the things that Oak Hill won't believe in is adult baptism by full immersion [Biased] )

Tubbs

[ 30. July 2007, 13:44: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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chive

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How accurate is this report?

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Custard
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It's basically a respun and less accurate version of this article.

I've spoken to people here who have seen the full PPH review (before these articles). They said that it did raise some serious questions, but on the whole was favourable towards Wycliffe, and specifically in favour of the recent management changes. The report doesn't single out Wycliffe at all, as I understand it.

From the Church Times article:

quote:

PERMANENT Private Halls in Oxford should keep their relationship with the University, a review panel recommends. The Halls, which include the theological colleges Wycliffe Hall and St Stephen’s House, have been questioned about their academic standards, as well as their liberal credentials and management styles.

The University’s control over the Halls should be tightened so that they maintain Oxford’s “liberal” tradition in teaching and ethos, says the Review of the Permanent Private Halls Associated with the University of Oxford, which was sent to the University Council last month.

The seven Halls, four of which are Roman Catholic (St Benet’s Hall, Greyfriars, Blackfriars, and Campion Hall), and one Baptist (Regent’s Park), in addition to the two Anglican foundations, are all “characterised by a religious origin and a Christian ethos”, says the report.

The review says the Halls have “a useful place in the larger University academic endeavour”, and can see “no reason to advocate the ending of the University’s relationship with them”. Yet it finds “discrepancies of substance” between the structures and assumptions of the Halls and of the University, and recommends that these be eliminated. A supervisory committee should report annually to the University Council to check that changes have been made, it suggests.

The big question was always going to be one of confessionalism, and to what extent it is appropriate to have a confessional theological college (Anglican or RC) as part of a non-confessional academic institution such as Oxford.

Of course, there are two ways to look at confessionalism in academia. Either it could be seen to be restricting academic inquiry (as this report seems to view it), or it could be seen to be a position which the person has freely chosen to adopt after considering the issues carefully (which it is in the case of many at Wycliffe).

Part of this was caused by a large new Saudi-funded Islamic centre (with some alleged fundamentalist leanings) applying to become a PPH, which itself raises all kinds of interesting questions.

What is curious in the Guardian article is the way it focuses on Wycliffe. Why Wycliffe rather than Staggers, which is in exactly the same position with respect to this report and the university?

Why keep the "Allegations of misogyny and homophobia" bit in when it was false last time too?

The intellectual development thing is because the report isn't happy that the PPHs are offering non-university courses as well. Of course they are! How do you expect to train 50-year old non-university educated people for ordained ministry by only teaching them Oxford theology without any pastoralia?

Once again, Stephen Bates manages to spin a story so strongly it isn't true any more.

[ 11. August 2007, 10:50: Message edited by: Custard. ]

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Nightlamp
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I don't think the people who wrote the report really understood the purpose of theological education. I also think that Stephen Bates spun the story badly and missed a legitimate concern (in my opinion) of the report about Wycliffe.
quote:
“The review panel believes that there should be a considerably greater say in the running of their institutions for the stipendiary academic staff, as in other parts of the collegiate University. In addition, it is not confident that all the Halls have the appropriate structures for the consideration of matters of academic discipline or the resolution of complaints.”
It is possible that the breakdown at Wycliffe is partly due to the above quote.
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Yerevan
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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
I was thinking about the reputation of Wycliffe with bishops and the like since they do have the power to discourage people from going to any particular college.

If they're seen to be going in a more conservative direction, they may well pick up applicants from other sections of the church. Apparently, some Stict Baptist churches prefer to send ministerial trainees to Oak Hill because of it's stance and reputation over things like women in ministry rather than the mainstream Baptist colleges. (Which other Baptists find ironic given that one of the things that Oak Hill won't believe in is adult baptism by full immersion [Biased] )

Tubbs

Rather randomly Regent's Park (fairly liberal Baptist training college and Oxford PPH) always gets lots of Southern Baptists over on summer programmes. I think their desire to put "Oxford" on their CV overcomes their horror of contact with libruls [Biased]
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The Centurion
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Stephen Bates starts his latest Guardian article: "One of the Church of England's most distinguished theological training colleges has been placed on notice that it must improve its academic standards..." This can now be seen to be highly unlikely considering that Wycliffe tops the Norrington table for PPHs and also beats numerous other colleges. This and a statement explaining other fabrications in the Bates piece is contained in a press release posted on the Wycliffe website - I wonder if this will make the Guardian...
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Custard
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here's the relevant link from the Wycliffe website

Bates has quite clearly overstepped even the pretence of unbiased journalism.

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Nightlamp
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Not that I can be certain about this but it would seem another member of staff has left Wycliffe, Gordon Kuhrt. Can anyone confirm this?

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Custard
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I don't know. On the other hand, Gordon was a part-timer brought in last year to teach preaching after his retirement from MinDiv. Really nice guy, but unfortunately he got quite ill during the year and spent much of it off sick (I believe I counted him as a part timer I'd expect to be leaving many many pages ago). I'd not be at all surprised if given

a) his health
b) the fact he's over retirement age
c) In September Wycliffe will probably have more staff than it did a year before, including people who are teaching homiletics and stuff.

He has decided to call it a day and devote what time he has to his local church. Makes perfect sense to me.

In other news, there's another interview coming up, for a post teaching history and doctrine.

It's a new post, largely because this last year Richard Turnbull has done almost all the history teaching in college on top of being principal, and because Wycliffe is growing and needs more staff.

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Scribehunter
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Custard,

You really must come and be my curate when you finish at Wycliffe. You are loyal to the cause.

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Barnabas62
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Threads sink fast in Purg - a few days on holiday and this had sunk to p3. I have two questions.

1. To Scribehunter. Which cause? From observation, one of the things which has always impressed me about Custard is his truthfulness - which I think transcends loyalty as a value anyway. Or did you just mean that you agreed with him theologically?

2. To anyone in the know. Has there been any movement on Elaine Storkey's disciplinary case? It's four months since it became public that there was such a case and the apparent reported trigger for the action has been shown (by the Guardian apology) to be based on things Elaine Storkey never said. Earlier in the thread I was arguing in favour of "due process" for this. Well, due process is hardly served by undue delay. In my secular employment, there were standards for "due process", including detailing alleged improprieties, preliminary and final hearings, means of appeal etc. All of these were designed to ensure that no-one was kept "hanging under threat" for any longer than necessary. I should think this has been very stressful for both Richard Turnbull and Elaine Storkey.

Obviously, there is a lot I do not know. But from the outside, and based on personal experience of these sorts of procedures, four months is a very long time for nothing of note to happen.

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Custard
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There is movement and development. What there is not yet is either clarity as to exactly what is going on or why.

I'd rather wait until more facts are known and more stuff is public before commenting here.

Term starts on 20th - things should become clear around then.

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Charles Read
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Term starts on the 20th! We started last Saturday.

I thought we we had the part-time students.... [Snigger]

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Thurible
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Some of us don't start til 29th!

Thurible

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Barnabas62
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Thanks for the advance "heads up", Custard. I suspect quite a few of us are keeping our eyes peeled for press releases, Gledhill blog articles etc ...

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Scribehunter
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Looks like there will be more news soon. Elaine Storkey has been removed from the Wycliffe Hall Staff page! No NT Tutor is listed yet.
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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
Elaine Storkey has been removed from the Wycliffe Hall Staff page!

Well you were quick on the mark not a solitary comment on any blog...

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Barnabas62
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In the interval before a Hall Council statement (which surely cannot be long delayed) perhaps Scribehunter could explain (as I asked earlier) just what cause he saw Custard being loyal to?

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
perhaps Scribehunter could explain (as I asked earlier) just what cause he saw Custard being loyal to?

Well fairly obviously Custard is loyal to Turnbull and puts a positive spin on any news or non-news.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Scribehunter
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Yes, that is pretty much what I meant. He's only got one shot - forward defence.
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Custard
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Not quite true - I'm fine with saying, for example, that I think there are some things Richard has handled badly.

I hope I haven't been too critical of anyone in this whole thing (except people who have demonstrably got their facts wrong). As I've said to people in PMs - if there are public developments that worry me, I'm absolutely fine with saying that I'm worried.

At present, my biggest worry is that the intake in 2008 is going to be heavily conservative because of the media coverage over the last six months, which may well dramatically change the character of the college.

Elaine has indeed been removed from the staff page (and she looked as if she was moving out of her office a few weeks ago), but there haven't been any official announcements about that. I don't think anyone expected her to start the new term though. Everyone else seems to be either around or in the process of moving to Oxford.

There has (today) been an official internal announcement about a new appointment in History and Doctrine with effect from October, which is good. As usual, I'm not going to say who the person is unless I see it publicly announced on the web, at which point I'm happy to comment on why I think they'll be great for the job (and I do).

The new Senior NT tutor isn't due to start until December (IIRC), so it's possible they're just sitting on it until then. As I've mentioned before, there are still two people teaching New Testament, so it isn't an urgent gap.

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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
perhaps Scribehunter could explain (as I asked earlier) just what cause he saw Custard being loyal to?

Well fairly obviously Custard is loyal to Turnbull and puts a positive spin on any news or non-news.
Whereas your interpretation of all news has been entirely neutral?

Thurible

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Custard
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Having just done some chasing on Google, the SEITE newsletter for July, section 2, names Andy Angel as the new New Testament tutor at Wycliffe, with effect from 1st December.

As I've written before, Dr Angel is said to be strongly charismatic, and a very highly recommended scholar with a great deal of potential.

[ 12. September 2007, 21:21: Message edited by: Custard. ]

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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Whereas your interpretation of all news has been entirely neutral?


I missed the post when I claimed to be neutral or for me to claim that anyone could be neutral. I do though remeber a post where custard agreed with me which would suggest that I am not that strongly biased.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Cantiones Sacrae
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Whereas your interpretation of all news has been entirely neutral?

I missed the post when I claimed to be neutral or for me to claim that anyone could be neutral. I do though remeber a post where custard agreed with me which would suggest that I am not that strongly biased.
Or that Custard is possessed of charm and good manners.
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Barnabas62
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I don't think Custard spins. I've been reading him on SoF for over 2 years now, and IMO he calls them as he sees them. I disagree with him on some things. But I respect him.

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I don't think Custard spins.

I have yet to read anyone who doesn't 'spin'. To 'call them as he sees them' is not to call them as a neutral person would see them but as custard sees them. I call things as I see them but it doesn't mean I am neutral or I am not guilty of spin.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Whereas your interpretation of all news has been entirely neutral?


I missed the post when I claimed to be neutral or for me to claim that anyone could be neutral. I do though remeber a post where custard agreed with me which would suggest that I am not that strongly biased.
I was simply making the point that no-one is neutral so that's good.

Thurible

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Barnabas62
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Interesting tangent. Of course we all have loyalties and preferences, particularly when it comes to situations in which we are participants. If those cause us to depart from truthfulness and fairness and head towards "our side must win at any cost" then we're in trouble. And for me, that is the difference between spin and effective support of a cause. When you spin, you lose if you win.

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badman
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I hope I haven't been too critical of anyone in this whole thing (except people who have demonstrably got their facts wrong).

Well, you did suggest that Giles Fraser was lying about his position at Wadham. It turned out you were demonstrably wrong about that.

You suggested I could be sued for libel, too, as I recall. "I doubt you'd be sued - but it's better to be safe than sorry", you said.

Are you now able to answer the questions I put to you here?

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by badman:
Well, you did suggest that Giles Fraser was lying about his position at Wadham. It turned out you were demonstrably wrong about that.

IIRC, Giles Fraser is one of the people who have made demonstrably false comments regarding Wycliffe (at least in their strong implications, if not in their precise wording). I questioned whether the newspaper's ascription of a position to him was correct when there was no evidence that he held that position on Wadham's website. It seemed like a fair question; I got a fair answer and am fine admitting that I was mistaken on that point.

quote:
You suggested I could be sued for libel, too, as I recall. "I doubt you'd be sued - but it's better to be safe than sorry", you said.
That is true. When there are allegations which are potentially damaging to the reputations of those involved, and you present them as fact, you are at potential risk of being sued for libel. Even the Guardian was very careful to report them as allegations rather than fact. IIRC, you were not.

I have been told by people involved that if the anonymous letter which was sent to the Guardian to start this whole thing off had not been anonymous, the author would quite possibly have been sued for libel by several different groups and individuals.

quote:
Are you now able to answer the questions I put to you here?
No, and I very much doubt whether you are either. As far as I am aware, there have not been any statements whatsoever from either side about those (alleged) disciplinary hearings or their outcome, except a comment some time ago from Wycliffe that there was legal action going on.

I rather imagine therefore that they were concluded in such a way that neither side had reason to put anything into the public arena. Maybe there will be comment on what happened in the future; maybe there won't. In some ways, I'd rather there wasn't. Whoever was more in the wrong, I rather hope they are Christian enough to have repented properly, and I don't see any reason to have the reputation either of Elaine or of Richard to be dragged further through the dust.

Wycliffe is about training people for the ordained ministry, not slagging each other off or whatever. I'd rather we had a chance to get on with training and being trained.

[ 13. September 2007, 09:36: Message edited by: Custard. ]

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badman
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You're wrong, actually, Custard. A defamatory statement is fine unless it isn't true. What I have persistently asked you is whether it is true that:

quote:
Elaine Storkey is being subjected to formal disciplinary proceedings for comments made at an internal meeting.
You won't say whether it is true or not. Perhaps you don't know?

What was certainly defamatory AND untrue was your suggestion that a well-known clergyman was lying about his position at Wadham. You don't seem to see the symmetry there.

[ 13. September 2007, 10:03: Message edited by: badman ]

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Custard
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I hate nitpicking with exactly what was said, but it looks like it's called for...

quote:
me on Giles Fraser (30th May 2007):
I particularly liked the bit where, after claiming that Wycliffe was trading off Oxford's good name, he claimed to be a lecturer at Oxford. AFAIK, he was a college chaplain some time ago, but left and doesn't have anything to do with the university.

The key point to notice here is that I wrote "AFAIK", which means "As far as I know". In other words, I was deliberately and clearly indicating that the thing I was stating was not necessarily the case but that it was the case to the best of my knowledge, which I recognised to be partial.

Indeed, I flagged that very point up once the limitations of my knowledge became clear.

Incidentally, my main point was that Mr Fraser was very clearly trading off Oxford's name in exactly the same way that he suggested Wycliffe were doing, and that point stands.

quote:
You wrote (15th June 2007)
It seems that Turnbull and co don't understand the difference [between dissent and disobedience] either, since Elaine Storkey is being subjected to formal disciplinary proceedings for comments made at an internal meeting.

Your first clause is qualified by "it seems that", which implies subjectivity and hence the possibility for error.

However, this is not true of the second clause, which you assumed and asserted to be factual. It seems in fact that she was subject to such proceedings, and I have said several times (IIRC) that I do not know precisely what they were for.

However, if the reasons for those proceedings were not the ones you gave, then your statement was untrue and could easily be construed as defamatory. As far as I am aware, there are only a handful of people who know the precise details of the action, and none of them have commented publicly about it.

Indeed, those suggested reasons for the proceedings which you reported as fact seem to have as their only source (so far) a document which I have been told is libellous and which we have seen to be inaccurate in several important respects.

But this is all old history. Why are you digging it up?

[ 13. September 2007, 10:39: Message edited by: Custard. ]

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Interesting tangent. Of course we all have loyalties and preferences, particularly when it comes to situations in which we are participants.

I might as well make my motives and so on clear.

The filter through which I view the situation is one of knowing, getting on well with and worshiping with most of the main participants, and wanting to think well of as many of them as I can (and not wanting to speak badly about any of them unless necessary). So I don't want to think there is conflict unless I have to, but at the same time I recognise we're all fallen and imperfect and all continually need God's grace.

My motivation in what I say is that I want Wycliffe to be training people for the Anglican ordained ministry as best as it can, and for it to continue to be somewhere where conservatives, charismatics and open evangelicals can worship and study together, to learn from one another and love one another and be equipped for working together, because I think that's important.

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I was simply making the point that no-one is neutral

Next time can I suggest you make the point as opposed to being aggressive to people. It is called good debating.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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GreyFace
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
for it to continue to be somewhere where conservatives, charismatics and open evangelicals can worship and study together, to learn from one another and love one another and be equipped for working together, because I think that's important.

I would applaud this but I note that you left liberals and catholics off your list.
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innocent(ish)
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
My motivation in what I say is that I want Wycliffe to be training people for the Anglican ordained ministry as best as it can, and for it to continue to be somewhere where conservatives, charismatics and open evangelicals can worship and study together, to learn from one another and love one another and be equipped for working together, because I think that's important. [/QB]

Admirable sentiment Custard, but taking as evidence the now notorious video of RT at last years Reform conference, and some of the written material by the Vice Principal and Director of Preaching, I suspect that may not be the aim of everyone at Wycliffe.

Obviously I hope I'm wrong, having recently finished training at one of the 'plus four' Theological Colleges (maybe he was making a golf reference of some sort??), we were painfully aware at how easy it could be for any one of the colleges to end up in the same situation. A salutory lesson for one and all.

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Posts: 109 | From: Rochester | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Having just done some chasing on Google, the SEITE newsletter for July, section 2, names Andy Angel as the new New Testament tutor at Wycliffe, with effect from 1st December.

Thanks for the news Custard. Interesting. Good for Andy.
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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I was simply making the point that no-one is neutral

Next time can I suggest you make the point as opposed to being aggressive to people. It is called good debating.
I hadn't intended it as aggresive but, rather, as slightly quizzically bemused but, re-reading, I see that it could have come across in the wrong way. Apologies for that.

Thurible

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
for it to continue to be somewhere where conservatives, charismatics and open evangelicals can worship and study together, to learn from one another and love one another and be equipped for working together, because I think that's important.

I would applaud this but I note that you left liberals and catholics off your list.
I also wrote "continue". Much though I love and respect some liberals and catholics, even before all this stuff, they were only coming here if they were evangelicals (though we do have some catholic evangelicals).

[ 13. September 2007, 16:36: Message edited by: Custard. ]

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Thurible
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You almost got me at Wycliffe! Now there's a scary thought, isn't it?

Thurible

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