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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Custard
I appreciated your recent posts. Now I think of it, there is a good deal in your "least said the better" surmise and I can imagine sensible people agreeing to do that if possible, despite the public interest and the differences. We'll have to see, of course.
I'm very much with your sentiments and hopes for the college. It has been a sad story - if some important lessons have been learned for the future, the college may be the better for it.
All the very best for the coming term.
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Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
quote:
I posted this four months ago:
Oxford University is a pretty liberal institution these days. It will be all for freedom of speech and religion, but it will look very closely at the University status of a Permanent Private Hall which appoints staff to teach that women should be subordinated to men because of their gender, or which appoints as Vice Principal a man who has published his considered opinion that "women should not be admitted to an office that involves the regular teaching or leadership of a congregation"....
The Oxford University review, headed by Sir Colin Lucas, has now been leaked, see report here
quote:
According to the report, what is on offer at Wycliffe does not resemble “an Oxford experience in its essentials” and is not “a suitable educational environment for the full intellectual development of young undergraduates”.
Wycliffe and St Stephen’s House, an Anglo-Catholic theological college at Oxford, have been told that they can no longer admit school-leavers to study undergraduate degrees.
...
According to the review to be published later this week, all seven private halls are to have their licences reviewed if they are “shown to be departing from the values of a liberal education.” If the halls lost their licences, the three Protestant bodies that currently do so would still be able to train ordinands. But they would not be able to describe themselves as part of the university or admit students for Oxford degrees.
Richard Turnbull isn't bothered, however.
quote:
Dr Turnbull said: “I am very pleased with the review. The real challenge is not for us but for the department of theology.” He said that Wycliffe would have no difficulty making up its lost student numbers from elsewhere.
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GreyFace
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# 4682
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I also wrote "continue". Much though I love and respect some liberals and catholics, even before all this stuff, they were only coming here if they were evangelicals (though we do have some catholic evangelicals).
Fair comment, sorry. Objection withdrawn.
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Cadfael
Shipmate
# 11066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
The Oxford University review, headed by Sir Colin Lucas, has now been leaked, see report here
According to the report, what is on offer at Wycliffe does not resemble “an Oxford experience in its essentials” and is not “a suitable educational environment for the full intellectual development of young undergraduates”.
Wycliffe and St Stephen’s House, an Anglo-Catholic theological college at Oxford, have been told that they can no longer admit school-leavers to study undergraduate degrees.
[snip]
Dr Turnbull said: “I am very pleased with the review. The real challenge is not for us but for the department of theology.” He said that Wycliffe would have no difficulty making up its lost student numbers from elsewhere.
What on earth is Dr Turnbull pleased about - I don't understand his comment at all...
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
...unless maybe he is going to offer courses from Brookes (or other places...?), or is just going to focus on older ultra-conservatives?
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Any (official) word on the staff situation? Is Elaine Storkey still there? If not, why not? Who is the Latimer Doctrine Fellow?
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"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hermeneut:
Dr Turnbull said: “I am very pleased with the review. The real challenge is not for us but for the department of theology.” He said that Wycliffe would have no difficulty making up its lost student numbers from elsewhere.
What on earth is Dr Turnbull pleased about - I don't understand his comment at all...
...unless maybe he is going to offer courses from Brookes (or other places...?), or is just going to focus on older ultra-conservatives? [/QB][/QUOTE]
My reading is that, once again, dear Ruthie has got slightly confused (I read an article of hers last week which was almost entirely accurate; I was so shocked I spilt my coffee!).
I would infer from Fr Turnbull's comment that Wycliffe has previously been able to guarantee a certain number of theology undergraduates of the non-ordinand variety which they cannot now do in the same way. Hence an issue for the theology department.
However, the report, rather than damning the teaching at the PPHs generally (lest we forget that it's not a report about Wycliffe alone), suggests that the teaching, whilst adequate, is not enough to make it a normal experience and thus doesn't think that school-leavers should read for their first degrees at PPHs.
S. Stephen's House has a fair number of PGCE students, I imagine Wycliffe does too. I also imagine that Wycliffe will have no problem attracting a fair number of older students (over 21, presumably). I don't see why it would only be ultra-conservatives who would look at Wycliffe either. Compared to Colin Slee, I'm sure most of those who would be prepared to consider applying to Wycliffe, yes, they probably are ultra-conservatives. Compared to the mainstream, though?
Thurible
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Custard
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# 5402
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Posted
Richard is generally pleased having read the whole thing - I've heard there are large sections which are complimentary about Wycliffe. I haven't seen it (of course), but have spoken to several people who have, and none of them seems worried by it at all.
The leak only leaked one little bit of it, and then as far as I can tell quoted Richard's response to the whole.
As regards the undergrads - I think it's fairly obviously true that the experience of people doing an Oxford undergrad degree while surrounded by older trainee vicars will be different from if they were surrounded by their inebriated peers. Some of them seem to like it and flourish here, others find it more difficult.
Charles - I've already replied about Elaine - see last page (nothing official from anyone, but she doesn't seem to be starting term). The Latimer doctrine fellow has been appointed and announced internally, but I haven't yet seen any webpages with it on, so I'm not going to say. I think I've said that already too.
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
The Latimer doctrine fellow has been appointed and announced internally, but I haven't yet seen any webpages with it on, so I'm not going to say.
Why do you think you have to keep even something like this "secret"?
It's bizarre.
Go on, tell us it's Andrew Atherstone. Now you'll have to kill me.... ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
[ 19. September 2007, 11:41: Message edited by: badman ]
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Cadfael
Shipmate
# 11066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
[snip]
The leak only leaked one little bit of it, and then as far as I can tell quoted Richard's response to the whole.
As regards the undergrads - I think it's fairly obviously true that the experience of people doing an Oxford undergrad degree while surrounded by older trainee vicars will be different from if they were surrounded by their inebriated peers. Some of them seem to like it and flourish here, others find it more difficult.
[snip].
There are three obvious objections to that reasoning: the criticism (as I understand it) is centred on the (lack of) liberality of the educational perspective, not the lack of companionable heavy drinkers; the suggestion that all the undergraduates outside Wycliffe are drunks is rather unpleasant; and it is entirely the responsibility of Wycliffe to provide a suitably supportive educational and pastoral context for all of its students.
Furthermore, Dr Turnbull's response is about dealing with a negative issue, by getting people from elsewhere - he does not quote any substantive positive factors from the report at all. One would think he would be at pains to highlight these, given an opportunity to speak on the matter.
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
Wycliffe are taking 18yo undergrads for theology this year though. Is this going to be a problem? Will they still get their degrees? I have to say I am quite confused!
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Richard is generally pleased having read the whole thing - I've heard there are large sections which are complimentary about Wycliffe.
TRUE HUMILITY (also known as The Curate's Egg)
Right Reverend Ordinand: "I'm afraid you've got a bad egg, Dr. Turnbull!"
The Principal: "Oh no, my boy, I assure you ! Parts of it are excellent!"
George du Maurier pic to go with this here
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Archimandrite
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# 3997
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Posted
The trouble is that there are different types of PPH. Those (Wycliffe and Staggers) that are also seminaries, and those that aren't.
I don't think the seminaries ought to take undergraduates, or at least certainly not those under 21. In fact, I'm not really sure why people would want to go to them, unless it's something as basic as the cost of living.
The RC Halls are, in many cases, a continuation of school. For those who were taught by Benedictines, for instance, Benet's must have a similar feel, swapping tutors/masters as they occasionally do.
Seminaries attached to Oxford ought to be able to offer Oxford degrees to their seminarians. Why they would want to offer an Oxford degree to anyone else, I don't know.
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
Please don't ignore the fact that it's only Wycliffe and St Stephen's that are singled out for not being the best places for undergrads. Places like Regents take on large nos of undergrads and are very involved in normal student life.
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Well, that just goes to show that I'm not too good at finding things on my own college website!
Yes, it's Andrew Atherstone, and no, nobody's surprised. He's currently writing a history of Wycliffe, and he did quite a bit of teaching of history last year as a visiting fellow, is well-liked in college, etc...
IIRC, Wycliffe started taking undergrads because a potential undergrad asked them to.
Greyfriars takes a fair few undergrads as well. FWIW, our undergrads take a fairly full part in university life too - most of them are involved in university societies, etc.
[ 19. September 2007, 12:10: Message edited by: Custard. ]
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
I hope he survives the Turnbull effect.
I rather suspect that people arriving at a college which is already run in a managerial style by a blunt northerner are more likely to be comfortable with it than people who arrived at a college which was a "free-floating academic collective".
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
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Archimandrite
Shipmate
# 3997
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
Please don't ignore the fact that it's only Wycliffe and St Stephen's that are singled out for not being the best places for undergrads. Places like Regents take on large nos of undergrads and are very involved in normal student life.
Yes, but that's because 2/3 of the students at Regent's Park are not training for the ministry. And they dominate - not to the exclusion of the Baptist heritage - in a way that the General Students, PGCE-ers and so on don't at Wycliffe and Staggers. Regent's Park is a normal college with a few seminarians; Staggers has a core of seminarians, with a large number of other people who aren't quite sure why they're there.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Out of interest, where does Atherstone stand on private confession? (I ask because I note that he's written a book on the subject.)
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hermeneut:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
[snip]
The leak only leaked one little bit of it, and then as far as I can tell quoted Richard's response to the whole.
As regards the undergrads - I think it's fairly obviously true that the experience of people doing an Oxford undergrad degree while surrounded by older trainee vicars will be different from if they were surrounded by their inebriated peers. Some of them seem to like it and flourish here, others find it more difficult.
[snip].
There are three obvious objections to that reasoning: the criticism (as I understand it) is centred on the (lack of) liberality of the educational perspective, not the lack of companionable heavy drinkers; the suggestion that all the undergraduates outside Wycliffe are drunks is rather unpleasant; and it is entirely the responsibility of Wycliffe to provide a suitably supportive educational and pastoral context for all of its students.
Furthermore, Dr Turnbull's response is about dealing with a negative issue, by getting people from elsewhere - he does not quote any substantive positive factors from the report at all. One would think he would be at pains to highlight these, given an opportunity to speak on the matter.
Given that Univ life is hard whatever the circumstances, I do think you're being rather harsh.
My friend was at Wycliffe under the previous regime and there were concerns then about the few 18 year old students doing degrees there coped.
They were a very tiny minority (2 in his year!) and surrounded by others who were often much older, married with families and intending to become CofE clergy.
There were issues about them building relationships with other students in the other colleges. (People doing first degrees at the PPHs were thought to be "weird").
His response was similar to Custard's - some thought it was great while others found it hard going - although the college staff and the other students did their best.
I'm actually surprised that no one noticed this issue before and did something about it. (Turnbull's comments seem fair enough as he may be responding to a question about the changes rather than the whole report. The people who do first degrees at WH at 18 are still going to want to do a theology degree, so it is an issue for the theology department).
Tubbs
[ 19. September 2007, 13:20: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
Is private confession a controversial thing Callan ?
Sorry if that's a naive question, but at my church, charismatic evangelical, you can have a confession with the priest if you like but you don't have to, and my friend who goes to a more anglo catholic church says that it is the same there. So I had perhaps wrongly assumed that was the general Anglican perspective.
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Scholar Gypsy
Shipmate
# 7210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
There were issues about them building relationships with other students in the other colleges. (People doing first degrees at the PPHs were thought to be "weird").
Tubbs
I was at Oxford (non-PPH college) studying theology for the last 4 years, and there was often an unpleasant assumption that it was rather easier to get into a PPH to read theology than at a "proper" college, as well that those studying there tended to be 'religious weirdos' or part of the 'Godsquad' or similar. I never saw any individual student being treated differently on the basis of whether they went to a PPH or not, but that was definitely a general feeling about them en masse.
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Archimandrite
Shipmate
# 3997
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scholar Gypsy:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
There were issues about them building relationships with other students in the other colleges. (People doing first degrees at the PPHs were thought to be "weird").
Tubbs
I was at Oxford (non-PPH college) studying theology for the last 4 years, and there was often an unpleasant assumption that it was rather easier to get into a PPH to read theology than at a "proper" college, as well that those studying there tended to be 'religious weirdos' or part of the 'Godsquad' or similar. I never saw any individual student being treated differently on the basis of whether they went to a PPH or not, but that was definitely a general feeling about them en masse.
I'd second that. In fact, to give an entirely prejudice-based account of the outsider-perceptions of the PPHs:
Wycliffe and Staggers - all students going to be clergy. Even if they aren't.
Benet's - too stupid to get into a real college, but RC and probably rich, so got into the Ampleforth Annexe.
Greyfriars' - a cold, lonely and distant place.
Regent's Park - Is it a PPH? So, they used to train ministers?
Campion, Blackfriars - you what?
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
quote:
Is private confession a controversial thing Callan ?
Sorry if that's a naive question, but at my church, charismatic evangelical, you can have a confession with the priest if you like but you don't have to, and my friend who goes to a more anglo catholic church says that it is the same there. So I had perhaps wrongly assumed that was the general Anglican perspective.
All may. None must. Some should. Quite right. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Actually, I was just curious what he thought about the issue. My guess within the C of E you'd find a few hardline Anglo-Papalists who wouldn't receive communion without confession and a few hardline evos. who think that confession is bad and evil because only baby Jesus has the power to forgive sins but most of us see it as a legitimate ministry of the church and put greater or less stress on depending on where we stand up the candle.
As far as the Wycliffe Hall thing goes, if he has denounced it as a doctrine of anti-Christ we can all go "ooh-er, another rum 'un" and if he takes issue with Pope Innocent III but is otherwise not agin' it Custard can point to him as an example of the sort of sensible open evangelical voice, still heard in the college but mainly I was intrigued that he'd written on the subject and was interested to know what he'd said.
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
quote:
Is private confession a controversial thing Callan ?
Sorry if that's a naive question, but at my church, charismatic evangelical, you can have a confession with the priest if you like but you don't have to, and my friend who goes to a more anglo catholic church says that it is the same there. So I had perhaps wrongly assumed that was the general Anglican perspective.
All may. None must. Some should. Quite right.
Actually, I was just curious what he thought about the issue. My guess within the C of E you'd find a few hardline Anglo-Papalists who wouldn't receive communion without confession and a few hardline evos. who think that confession is bad and evil because only baby Jesus has the power to forgive sins but most of us see it as a legitimate ministry of the church and put greater or less stress on depending on where we stand up the candle.
As far as the Wycliffe Hall thing goes, if he has denounced it as a doctrine of anti-Christ we can all go "ooh-er, another rum 'un" and if he takes issue with Pope Innocent III but is otherwise not agin' it Custard can point to him as an example of the sort of sensible open evangelical voice, still heard in the college but mainly I was intrigued that he'd written on the subject and was interested to know what he'd said.
There are few clues out there, save that a book of his is quoted in an article extracted from a TEC parish newsletter which discusses private confession in favourable terms.
As to the general acceptance of the practice of private, sacramental confession in the CofE, one need only hark back to the fuss around "The Priest in Absolution" and the Sellon business in Plymouth to know that it was not ever thus.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Archimandrite:
I don't think the seminaries ought to take undergraduates, or at least certainly not those under 21. In fact, I'm not really sure why people would want to go to them, unless it's something as basic as the cost of living.
I can't speak about Oxford, but I was once an undergraduate at a theologial college attached to Another University Entirely, Somewhere in the North of England, and I would recommend it to almost anybody.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Archimandrite:
I don't think the seminaries ought to take undergraduates, or at least certainly not those under 21. In fact, I'm not really sure why people would want to go to them, unless it's something as basic as the cost of living.
I can't speak about Oxford, but I was once an undergraduate at a theologial college attached to Another University Entirely, Somewhere in the North of England, and I would recommend it to almost anybody.
I seem to recall we were undergraduates at the same place, ken. If you are indeed talking of the place I assume you are, it's not really the same thing at all, is it?
At Staggers, there's a small community of ordinands who go to church together three times a day, eat together three times a day, spend much of the day together the same things. There're also some PGCE students and a minute number of undergraduates who do very different things and, sadly for all, don't, therefore, become part of the community.
At Our Place in the North, there are two Halls which, together, form one college. One has about 50-60 students which eat, pray, socialise, study together, etc. The other has 300 who live a normal undergraduate (or MCR) life but seem to go to church more than any other group of undergraduates in the world. There's interaction (with shared sports teams, libraries and a bar), there're friendships made, even marriages (I can think of two, I think, from my time and certainly one) but it's not the same as being part of a seminary.
Thurible
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I think I can throw some light although my experience is not Oxford. I recall that in the mid nineteen eighties there was an idea that "ordinands needed exposure to the real world" and that the way to do this was to have students who were "normal" students studying alongside them. This often led to the weird situations like you had eighteen year old girls from religious family in the theological college so as to increase forty year old ex-miners knowledge about the world!
In other words it was half thought out tokenism. I am guessing that the non-ordinands are a remnant of this tokenism.
However I do know at least one former PPH that was at least partly a theological seminary in foundation which is now a full college but no longer a place where people can train for ordination in the main sponsoring denomination. Check out Mansfield if you want confirmation of this.
Jengie
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
From a slight outsider's perspective (having gone to the university in question), the relations between the regular colleges and the two main independent colleges (of which the college Ken mentions is one) always seemed thoroughly normal to me (jokes about "vicar factories" aside.) Again, as an outsider, reading this discussion makes me think that the juster comparison for the relationship between the PPHs and the other Oxford colleges in my university context would be that between our associated RC seminary and the rest of the collegiate body, independent and otherwise.
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Thurible and Ken - you were indeed at the same college, but some years apart (sorry Ken, but the truth hurts...)*. Undergrad numbers in That College were much smaller then.
But the mix of seminary and 'odinary' college was one of the things I liked about it and miss a great deal.
*Anyway, I think we are a similar age. i graduated first time round in 1981.
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"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
But the mix of seminary and 'odinary' college was one of the things I liked about it and miss a great deal.
Me too. It's one of the few (for me) attractions of the idea of ministerial training at the Northern Seminary of St Mary the Less.
A very good place in very many ways.
Thurible
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Lots and lots of news.
Ruth Gledhill has posted an article by Gerald Bray, with some of her own comments, which is well worth a read.
It's worth clarifying, as I have tried to all along, that Richard Turnbull wants to get Wycliffe more like Oak Hill in terms of the quality of the training (which the Bishops' report thing recognises is outstanding - Oak Hill keep showing the report to any DDOs who try arguing), but not in terms of the narrowness of tradition. Indeed, some of his appointments make no sense whatsoever unless he wants to keep Wycliffe including charismatics and open evangelicals in a way that Oak Hill doesn't seem to.
There's also been a proper statement from Richard, but I'll wait until tomorrow before discussing it - I need my sleep.
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Ruth Gledhill has posted an article by Gerald Bray, with some of her own comments, which is well worth a read.
It's worth clarifying, as I have tried to all along, that Richard Turnbull wants to get Wycliffe more like Oak Hill in terms of the quality of the training
.
According to Gerald Bray (and indeed according to Richard turbull at the reform conference) also to it's Evangelical roots away from being normalised as open evangelical.
[ 19. September 2007, 23:13: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
But also representing the breadth of evangelical rather than specifically conservative, which is also what I've been saying.
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
But also representing the breadth of evangelical rather than specifically conservative, which is also what I've been saying.
You have been saying that but Gerald Bray isn't.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Hi Custard - hope you got at least some sleep! You were saying that Richard Turnbull had made a statement? Perhaps it was for staff/students?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
Gerald Bray's article doesn't add much to the Wycliffe mix except some interesting history and a whiff of paranoia.
quote:
three former principals have written what has become an open letter, demanding his dismissal. Anywhere else, such interference would be regarded as inappropriate at best, but in Middle Earth it is normal for people to come back from the dead and claim enhanced authority
That will be "shoot the messenger", then.
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Lured by assurances that their views would be respected, conservative Evangelicals went to Wycliffe only to discover that once they got there they were subjected to a form of discrimination occasionally bordering on persecution.
Persecution is a big word - especially in the context of a city which has seen people burned at the stake for their beliefs. A lot of American conservatives claim to be persecuted too. Does this refer to anything more than disagreement or unpopularity? Can even ridicule be characterised as "persecution"? Isn't a university a proper place for points of view to be subjected to rigorous scrutiny and vigorous disagreement?
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Faced with this kind of challenge, we know that it will be only by the grace of God that Dr. Turnbull will stand firm and make the changes which are needed if the college he runs is to fulfil the task for which its founders designed it.
Previous posts on this thread have pointed out how little detail is ever given about "the changes which are needed". Gerald Bray's only tells us that it means getting rid of the "nice people" and achieving "growth... in quantity... and quality." Yes, but how is this being done?
In what way does seeing the best staff leave, the public reputation of the college shredded and the University's approval for its admission of undergraduates withdrawn part of this "growth... in quantity... and quality"?
Posts: 429 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Jun 2005
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
Persecution is a big word - especially in the context of a city which has seen people burned at the stake for their beliefs. A lot of American conservatives claim to be persecuted too. Does this refer to anything more than disagreement or unpopularity? Can even ridicule be characterised as "persecution"? Isn't a university a proper place for points of view to be subjected to rigorous scrutiny and vigorous disagreement?
There's vigorous disagreement and vigorous, loving disagreement.
What non-conservative evangelicals tend to get at Oak Hill from the students is the latter.
What I've noticed on this thread is a mixture of the two.
But some people interpret either as persecution. What people tend to get here (on issues where there is a range of views - e.g. women bishops) is loving disagreement, and discussion that actually tries to be gentle (though that doesn't stop it being rigorous). Perhaps you confuse rigour and vigour.
quote:
Previous posts on this thread have pointed out how little detail is ever given about "the changes which are needed". Gerald Bray's only tells us that it means getting rid of the "nice people" and achieving "growth... in quantity... and quality." Yes, but how is this being done?
I've certainly given the examples of massively changing the college's managerial structure, increasing the emphasis on the role of preaching, etc. I've also pointed out that the changes that were needed were largely defined by the last bishops' report.
Maybe I misread Gerald Bray. Where does he say that what was needed was for the "nice staff" to leave?
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In what way does seeing the best staff leave
I think that's very insulting to the staff who haven't left.
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the public reputation of the college shredded
Entirely because of an anonymous libelous letter sent to the Guardian, rather than because of the changes. Though it seems probable that the letter may have been sparked by someone's irrationally bad reaction to the changes. And the reputation has only been "shredded" among those naive enough to believe what they read in such a letter.
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and the University's approval for its admission of undergraduates withdrawn
Nothing to do with the changes, which the PPH review is actually positive about.
I'll discuss Richard's statement, but not yet. I haven't been told that it's ok to circulate it outside college, and I'd actually be quite interested to see where it gets discussed first.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750
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Posted
Custard is right that there is an interesting mismatch between, on the one hand, the conservative enthusiasm for 'what brother Richard is doing at Wycliffe' (evidence: Gerald B's editorial; the letter in support of Turnbull some months ago; public statements at Oak Hill about the appointment of Simon Vibert; Turnbull's own Reform performance); and, on the other hand, the lack of evidence for a more conservative theological position among recent Wycliffe staff appointments (other than Vibert).
I can't quite fathom this mismatch.
Posts: 143 | Registered: Jun 2007
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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750
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Posted
Another mismatch which fascinates me is that idea that Wycliffe could be like Oak Hill in its excellent training (acc. to Custard anyway); but somehow not be like Oak Hill in its theology.
The issue is that Oak Hill's training, with an emphasis on expository preaching, is only really possible on the basis of a certain type of theology in which the proclamation of the Word is absolutely central. (It is an interesting theology in which the Proclamation Trust and Bultmann are on the same side against Calvin, but let's not got there now.)
Posts: 143 | Registered: Jun 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I rather like Gerald Bray's article. It is good fun. Though it seems to say very little about Wycliffe Hall and a lot about Oxford. Though its the Oxford of myth and poetry and conspiracy theory rather than the city a little south of Birmingham with two universities and a closed car factory.
I note that he commends the famous video clip. Which reinforces my feeling that, far from being a smoking gun, most evangelicals who see it - even nasty cuddly lefty ones like me who like ordained women - will tend to think "so what's all the fuss about then?"
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
I think the resolution to both the tensions which Scribehunter articulated well is roughly this:
Conservative evangelicals' top priorities in ministers are ability to teach the Bible well and personal holiness. That isn't at all incompatible with what a charismatic evangelical or an open evangelical would look for in a minister.
I think what Richard is aiming for eventually is a college where preaching and handling the Bible correctly is seen as central to what we do, the "worship" is largely charismatic (but accessible to conservatives) and a wider variety of opinions are respresented among students and staff than currently at Oak Hill. And he's trying to do that while aiming to be "an international centre for evangelical theology".
Conservative enthusiasm is hence because Richard is aiming to improve the Bible teaching, which they see as essential. By and large, they think that if a college is good on that, it's worth going to. Having a conservative as the person in charge of preaching makes that even stronger.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
<tangent>
Custard, if Wycliffe is such a great academic institution how come you never seem to go to any lectures? (Or do you have the standard Oxbridge 3 day terms ... with a generous college lunch between 12 and 3?)
<end of tangent>
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Custard, if Wycliffe is such a great academic institution how come you never seem to go to any lectures? (Or do you have the standard Oxbridge 3 day terms ... with a generous college lunch between 12 and 3?)
I'm doing an Oxford Theology BA, which is tutorial-based and doesn't restart for a couple of weeks because it runs on University terms.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I think what Richard is aiming for eventually is a college where preaching and handling the Bible correctly is seen as central to what we do ...
I would really like to know what it means to handle the Bible "correctly". And who decides what is "correct" handling? And is it something different from what they used to teach at Wycliffe?
Posts: 143 | Registered: Jun 2007
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I think what Richard is aiming for eventually is a college where preaching and handling the Bible correctly is seen as central to what we do ...
I would really like to know what it means to handle the Bible "correctly".
Hold by the spine, allowing the pages to fall open naturally. No folding down page corners, no highlighter pens.
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
< Tangent on ... >
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I think what Richard is aiming for eventually is a college where preaching and handling the Bible correctly is seen as central to what we do ...
I would really like to know what it means to handle the Bible "correctly".
Hold by the spine, allowing the pages to fall open naturally. No folding down page corners, no highlighter pens.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
quote:
no highlighter pens.
Yes indeed. I've never understood the need to trash books by scribbling in them or otherwise defacing them. Photocopiers do exist in our technologically advance age, or for those of a more antiquarian bent there is always the commonplace book in which to record memorable passages.
Tch. Must be my inner librarian coming out.
< ... Tangent completed. >
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
no highlighter pens. Yes indeed. I've never understood the need to trash books by scribbling in them or otherwise defacing them. Photocopiers do exist in our technologically advance age, or for those of a more antiquarian bent there is always the commonplace book in which to record memorable passages.
When I found a reason to take a highlighter to a copy of the Bible I went to the bookshop and bought a board-covered NRSV for 5.99...
[ 20. September 2007, 13:37: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Having a conservative as the person in charge of preaching makes that even stronger.
I would disagree with saying that a particular theological stance (conservative) makes you a good preacher it makes you conservative. Gifting or skill is independent of theological views.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
no highlighter pens. Yes indeed. I've never understood the need to trash books by scribbling in them or otherwise defacing them. Photocopiers do exist in our technologically advance age, or for those of a more antiquarian bent there is always the commonplace book in which to record memorable passages.
When I found a reason to take a highlighter to a copy of the Bible I went to the bookshop and bought a board-covered NRSV for 5.99...
NRSV bibles always seem to be expensive, like at least £10 more than that. Why is this, does anyone know? And where do you buy bibles?
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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