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Source: (consider it) Thread: US election aftermath
sabine
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# 3861

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Black Americans, on the other hand, lived under a police state for three centuries, a situation that only ended within living memory. [/QB]

You might read
The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander. It's about mass incarceration of primarily African-Americans in for-profit prisons as well as the over policing of African Americans. The police state is far from over. Chilling.

sabine

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Venezuelan economist Andres Rondon wrote an interesting opinion piece in the Washington Post about how to combat populism reflecting on the experience with Chavez in his home country. I think he is more or less saying don't engage in populist tactics to defeat populists such as Trump.

No institutional experience of dictatorship in the US makes the information from this source important but not automatically applicable.
Well, no experience in dictatorship for white Americans. Black Americans, on the other hand, lived under a police state for three centuries, a situation that only ended within living memory.
That's why I used the word institutional. Courts, army, police, media, education system, churches - none have a history of being co-opted by a dictatorship. Its thus a very different ball game then the Chavez situation. Not to say they can't all be co-opted but the general "Don't tread on me" nature of white USA since its inception provides a very different atmosphere for a demagogic populist attempting to unbalance the checks and balances system.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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Just came from marching at LAX in protest of the Muslim ban. The press estimates the crowd at 4000-- I couldn't say-- I'm a shortie so all I know is that there were people all around me! Very, very peaceful march. Even the travelers who were no doubt inconvenienced by the traffic and difficulty getting thru the crowd were positive and supportive, stopping to explain to their children what was going on, to take video, and to cheer us on.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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take video, huh (sort of tongue in cheek rather than sinister... I hope)

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Human

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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I did. Posted to fb

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Sarasa
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# 12271

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I read somewhere in the British press, but annoyingly can't find it now, that Trump's actions are enough to get him impreached already. Is that just wishful thinking?

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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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What about blowback? Gulp.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by Sarasa:
I read somewhere in the British press, but annoyingly can't find it now, that Trump's actions are enough to get him impreached already. Is that just wishful thinking?

Probably, because while I have no doubt he's stepped over the line several times already, you have to get an impeachment past a Republican Congress--and while I was once Republican (we'll see if I can ever use that name again), the current crop of leaders includes so many ass-kissers and ineffectual mmrppphrmmophmmmrmmph that it'll take something truly outrageous to galvanize them into action. Witness the way they dithered about preventing and later getting rid of him as a nominated candidate.

I'm beginning to suspect it'll be mental health grounds that will finally bring him down. I'd love to see a brain scan on the man--or more precisely, to have an Alzheimer's specialist see one.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Oh, I think His Extreme Ghastliness could probably manage something truly outrageous, perhaps sooner rather than later.

The quicker he goes, the better for the World, I think.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Sarasa
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# 12271

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There seem to be a few things going the rounds on the internet about his mental health. How could he be removed on those grounds, if no one managed to stop him getting this far in the first place? Would he have to do something totally beyond the pale (if what he's done already isn't that) which leads to a lot of death and destruction before it happens.

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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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How do you persuade him to have a brain scan? Assure him it's research to show how smart he is?

It's going to be a beautiful brain scans, yuge, no-one has had such a beautiful brain scan before!

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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I had a brain scan in December 2015, which showed I had a brain tumour as big as an Orange!

Make of that what you will....

....but, seriously, a brain tumour (which might well be asymptomatic in physical terms) may well lead to personality disorders.

That's my excuse, anyway.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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The PG in Chief has been exquisitely careful, to date, to avoid any serious medical evaluation. He has also sedulously concealed his tax returns from the public. I am certain that there's dynamite lurking in both these areas, things that would make him unelectable (that is to say, even more unelectable) or that would send him to prison. Now he is president it is very unlikely he can be forced to reveal any of this.

The GOP knows they are chained to this man by the ankle, with the line wrapped around their necks. They will cling to him, keeping him in power, for as long as they can without regard for the rest of the populace. Because the moment he goes over the side they're going with him, into howling oblivion, and they cannot bear that.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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nickel
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# 8363

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I imagine both our political parties are keeping careful track of grounds for impeachment. But, they need to carefully consider two factors. First, timing. Got to give Trump time to fail (but what if, gasp, he succeeds in gaining jobs for lower middle class? Doubtful, but ???). Second, Pence. Personally I think I'd rather stick with a man who is clearly a buffoon, than a man smart enough to hide it.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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For you delight and delectation.

tl;dr (though it's well worth reading the whole, horrifying article)

Trump is disposable. Pence is who matters.

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Forward the New Republic

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Stercus Tauri
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# 16668

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quote:
Originally posted by nickel:
I imagine both our political parties are keeping careful track of grounds for impeachment. But, they need to carefully consider two factors. First, timing. Got to give Trump time to fail (but what if, gasp, he succeeds in gaining jobs for lower middle class? Doubtful, but ???). Second, Pence. Personally I think I'd rather stick with a man who is clearly a buffoon, than a man smart enough to hide it.

trump has already failed. His personal behaviour has exposed his country to global contempt and ridicule for having elected him, and with a single executive order he has renewed and enhanced the country's status as a terrorist target. What more do you want?

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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sabine
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# 3861

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Pence was my Governor. He's ambitious but not that smart. He was once described by both a childhood friend and again by a former teacher (a nun) as the little boy who tried to be the best little boy.

Even as President, he would continue to be the one who repeats the talking points ad nauseum. Question is, who will be calling the shots and sending him out there with instructions?

sabine

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
Pence was my Governor. He's ambitious but not that smart. He was once described by both a childhood friend and again by a former teacher (a nun) as the little boy who tried to be the best little boy.

Even as President, he would continue to be the one who repeats the talking points ad nauseum. Question is, who will be calling the shots and sending him out there with instructions?

sabine

That is easy. The Republican Party. With Trump, they are running alongside the clown car. With Pence, they would be in the passenger seat, navigating.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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sabine
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# 3861

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[Big Grin] Right you are. And it will be the most right of the rights, too (not to be confused with "correct.")

My previous question was somewhat rhetorical.

sabine

[ 30. January 2017, 18:18: Message edited by: sabine ]

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Penny S
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# 14768

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
For you delight and delectation.

tl;dr (though it's well worth reading the whole, horrifying article)

Trump is disposable. Pence is who matters.

And, as the first comment below, and the post above say, horrifying. I thought "The Handmaid's Tale" was OTT.

But the hopeful stuff is the number of comments from the escapees.

[ 30. January 2017, 18:22: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
quote:
Originally posted by nickel:
Second, Pence. Personally I think I'd rather stick with a man who is clearly a buffoon, than a man smart enough to hide it.

trump has already failed. His personal behaviour has exposed his country to global contempt and ridicule for having elected him, and with a single executive order he has renewed and enhanced the country's status as a terrorist target. What more do you want?
I think you underestimate the degree to which a Muslim Ban has become a standard Republican position. Take this guy, for instance:

quote:
After the terrorist attacks in Paris, Republican Gov. Mike Pence said Monday that he is suspending the resettlement of Syrian refugees in Indiana.

He joined governors from at least 15 other states, including those from Alabama, Arkansas, Illinois, Massachusetts, Michigan, Ohio and Texas, who said they won't accept Syrian refugees after reports suggest one of the Paris bombers may have posed as a Syrian refugee.

"Indiana has a long tradition of opening our arms and homes to refugees from around the world but, as governor, my first responsibility is to ensure the safety and security of all Hoosiers," Pence said in a statement.

He said he was directing all state agencies to stop resettling Syrian refugees in Indiana until the federal government can provide assurances that "proper security measures are in place."

Policy-wise, Donald Trump is not an aberration. The major thing that distinguishes him from other national Republican politicians is his buffoonishness and incompetence. (Sometimes not even that.)

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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sabine
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# 3861

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Well, Pence lost that fight in Indiana.

First the Archbishop of the Archdiocese of Indianapolis (where Catholic Charities is a resettlement agency) went to visit him and basically said. "We won't stop resettling refugees. God bless you."

And then the other refugee resettlement agency (under Church World Service) sued Pence and won.

Pence loves to tell people he is "a Christian, a conservative, and a Republican--in that order, " but he is hollow as a politician and just a toady for ideologues or anyone who will pull him up a notch.

sabine

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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So there is at least a non-zero chance that Trump is going to get up there tomorrow and announce that he is actually nominating three judges to become Supreme Court justices in a new 11-member court, right?

It would knock the immigration EO right off the front page, it would contribute to the chaos that may eventually drive the opposition to fatigue, it's technically legal, and they could use it to further delegitimize the judge who issued the EO injunction (We're just trying to take the courts back from activist judges who would rather help dangerous people than Americans!).

I'm not saying that it is highly likely to happen, but if it does, you heard it here first. At the very least, I would be shocked if it hasn't been thrown around in a staff meeting.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
So there is at least a non-zero chance that Trump is going to get up there tomorrow and announce that he is actually nominating three judges to become Supreme Court justices in a new 11-member court, right?

That tactic worked for the Governor of Arizona.
[Frown]

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Crœsos
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# 238

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Well this should get interesting.

quote:
Acting Attorney General Sally Q. Yates, a holdover from the Obama administration, ordered the Justice Department on Monday not to defend President Trump’s executive order on immigration in court.

“I am responsible for ensuring that the positions we take in court remain consistent with this institution’s solemn obligation to always seek justice and stand for what is right,” Ms. Yates wrote in a letter to Justice Department lawyers. “At present, I am not convinced that the defense of the executive order is consistent with these responsibilities nor am I convinced that the executive order is lawful.”

So ten days in and we're already in Saturday Night Massacre territory. Trump does have the authority to fire her, but there's one catch:

quote:
Mr. Trump has the authority to fire Ms. Yates, but as the top Senate-confirmed official at the Justice Department, she is the only one authorized to sign foreign surveillance warrants, an essential function at the department.
I think Ms. Yates just transformed Jeff Session's Senate hearings into a referendum on Trump's immigration order.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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I think the time for underestimating Trump is well and truly over. He has made it all the way to the Oval Office with the world's laughter ringing in his ears. Let's keep laughing, but let's stop fooling ourselves that he's an idiot or incompetent. It's not going to help.

Let's also pray that nothing like the Weather Underground appears to oppose him, or the Black Panthers. I think that some on the right are looking for any excuse to attack people, and America is chock-full of weapons.

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Human

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Trump does have the authority to fire her, but there's one catch...

Seems he wasn't too concerned...

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
So there is at least a non-zero chance that Trump is going to get up there tomorrow and announce that he is actually nominating three judges to become Supreme Court justices in a new 11-member court, right?

That tactic worked for the Governor of Arizona.
[Frown]

God knows Trump doesn't care (or know, I think) whether something is even possible before he orders it. So yes, he may try it. I rather wish he would, as it would infuriate Congress, which is the only authority with the power to set the number of justices. The more he pulls Congress' tail, the faster we'll get an impeachment.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Alt Wally

Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245

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quote:
Policy-wise, Donald Trump is not an aberration.
Quinnipiac U. polling data shows about half the country supports the immigration executive order.
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Dave W.
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# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Policy-wise, Donald Trump is not an aberration.
Quinnipiac U. polling data shows about half the country supports the immigration executive order.
Maybe half of clairvoyant American voters?

"The national poll was conducted between January 5 – 9."

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Policy-wise, Donald Trump is not an aberration.
Quinnipiac U. polling data shows about half the country supports the immigration executive order.
Maybe half of clairvoyant American voters?

"The national poll was conducted between January 5 – 9."

Unless I'm very much mistaken, Donald Trump hadn't issued any Executive Orders before January 5.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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This article from the Atlantic by David Frum is long but free. And utterly terrifying.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Alt Wally

Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Unless I'm very much mistaken, Donald Trump hadn't issued any Executive Orders before January 5.

I thought I typed the word intent at the end of my sentence but had left that off. The most recent polling data unfortunately seems to show about half the country supports the substance of this directive. That is probably more accurate phrasing. This does not appear to be an aberration.
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Dave W.
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# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I thought I typed the word intent at the end of my sentence but had left that off.

Really? Did you leave it off the headline of the article you linked to, also?
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Golden Key
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# 1468

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simontoad--

The Black Panthers are still around, including the New Black Panthers.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Trump does have the authority to fire her, but there's one catch...

Seems he wasn't too concerned...
Indeed. I gave it 50-50 odds, given I'm not sure Trump knows what a FISA court and, if he knew, likely assumes he could just work around it. What's more interesting is his replacement of the head of Immigration and Customs Enforcement without any explanation. "Night of the Long Ties" perhaps?

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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Does his going back to his previous position as deputy director say anything? It seems odd to me to demote someone back to a previous position instead of getting rid of them, or moving them to a different agency/department...
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Dafyd
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# 5549

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If I were in the States I would be writing to whomever I could write to, asking them to:

Insist that everyone who belongs on the National Security Council is kept on it.

Insist that Trump's proposed inquiry into voting irregularities be bipartisan. (And if possible that it widen its remit to include voter suppression, but that goes beyond holding the line and into fighting back).

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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Trump coming out this morning saying he is going to keep enforcing the Obame EO on LGBTQ rights.

No this isn't fake news.

[ 31. January 2017, 11:08: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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sabine
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Well, that's a relief. But don't relax, folks. Steve Bannon is emerging as the true power behind the throne (Geo. Washington must be spinning in his grave), and I can't believe that LGBT human rights would be something Bannon goes for.

sabine

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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How long, I wonder, before Bannon executes a coup d'etat, and consigns Mango Man to the bonfire?

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Stetson
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# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by sabine:
Well, that's a relief. But don't relax, folks. Steve Bannon is emerging as the true power behind the throne (Geo. Washington must be spinning in his grave), and I can't believe that LGBT human rights would be something Bannon goes for.

sabine

I dunno. I follow a bit of the so-called Alt-Right media(albeit not Bannon's Breitbart) and one thing that is quite noticable about them, in a Dog That Didn't Bark sort of a way, is that, unlike the old Religious Right, they don't seem to worry much about GLBQT issues at all. Whenever the topic does come up, in fact, it's usually in the context of saying how we need to keep out Muslims because they're gonna persecute gays(see Trump's convention speech).

Not that I think they really care deeply about protecting gay rights, apart from having it as a convenient princess for their anti-immigration dragon-slaying epic, just that I don't think rolling back gay rights is really a significant part of their agenda, if at all.

My main concern with Trump and gay-rights involves SCOTUS appointments, because he HAS promised to appoint judges who want to discard Roe V. Wade(this likely as a sop to the aforementioned Religious Right), and I would think it almost impossible to find judges who want to overturn abortion rights while keeping gay rights intact.

[ 31. January 2017, 13:57: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Is the USA really still a democracy? The imposition of the orders of one man, the moneyed interests who run things. The selection of non-elected people to impose the executive orders.

I am certainly tired of the cold war label "leader of the free world". Leader of a declining democracy is more apt. The USA looks more like Italy under Silvio_Berlusconi. Creation of chaos to maintain control, enriching of self, non-social responses to others, pushing all the boundaries of decency and law.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Bishops Finger
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The imposition of the orders of one man, yes, but which man?

President Trump, or shadow-President Bannon?

[Paranoid]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Stetson
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No Prophet wrote:

quote:
The imposition of the orders of one man
Much as I dislike a lot of the executive orders coming from Trump's pen, it's not entirely clear to me if the process itself is that wild a departure from previous protocol. The Executive Orders that Trump is vowing to uphold on gay rights, for example, were issued by one man, ie. Barack Obama.

And my ignorance on this topic is genuine, not rhetorical, as I really don't know exactly when and under what circumstances a president can issue executive orders. I did read somewhere that Bush II and Obama amped up the frequency of EOs considerably, so there might be a bit of blame to go around on this.

[ 31. January 2017, 14:17: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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sabine
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Every president since Geo. Washington has had the ability to issue executive orders. They aren't quite the same as laws from Congress but can carry weight and (as we've seen) do some damage.

The Emancipation Proclamation and The New Deal were executive orders.

sabine

[ 31. January 2017, 14:19: Message edited by: sabine ]

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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Penny S
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# 14768

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The Independent has published a piece about a diagnosis of malignant narcissism (apparently the limitations on professionals publishing such have been officially removed), and below it are comments of the sort that leave me wanting to wash my eyes out.
Including a claim that 25 million fake votes were cast for 'killery'. This has been exposed as false, but is all over the search engine. (A bit of overkill. I'd have gone for something like 4.3 million, to wipe out the popular vote majority without looking stupid.)

And I heard on the radio, don't remember which, someone claim that Steve Bannon had paid protestors during the campaign last year, which would be interesting if true, since the Trumpists accuse everyone against them of being paid by Soros, showing that they can't conceive of any other way of doing things. I have heard that an executive of Nestle thought the same of protestors against their baby milk tactics. However, I can't find either the claim or a rebuttal on line, so I don't know how true it is.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The imposition of the orders of one man, yes, but which man?

President Trump, or shadow-President Bannon?

[Paranoid]

IJ

So Bannon is today's Ernst Rohm?. Are there long knives in this rhyme? Or do the knives point another direction?

Executive orders. Brings to mind the powers of a king, but not curbed sufficiently by a representative government like they are in a constitutional monarchy because of the pretence that a president is elected.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Eutychus
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Here is an article which sets out the worst-case scenario explanation for the events of the weekend and what ordinary people can do about them.

Key points include the fact that the DHS' initial defiance of the courts was a much bigger win even than imposing the immigration restrictions beyond refugees to include visa holders, and the lack of coverage of Bannon's appointment to the NSC Principals committee, coupled with the departure therefrom of the Chiefs of Staff.

quote:
Popular attention must focus less on whether we agree with what the government is doing, and more on whether the system of checks and balances we have in place is working. It is a much bigger deal that the DHS felt they could ignore a federal court than that Trump signed an EO blocking green card holders in the first place. It is a much bigger deal that Trump removed a permanent military presence from the NSC than that he issued a temporary stay on immigration. The immigration ban may be more viscerally upsetting, but the other moves are potentially far more dangerous.


[ 31. January 2017, 15:11: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Oh God.
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