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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
My copy of Fire and Fury has arrived!
So far it's everything I hoped for, and not as tabloidy as I had feared.
Interestingly, Wolff reserves some criticism for the media and its obssessive fixation that everything Trump and his team says or does proves conspiracy rather than cock-up. quote:
This had led increasingly to the two-different-realities theory of Trump politics. In the one reality, which encompassed most of Trump’s supporters, his nature was understood and appreciated. He was the anti-wonk. He was the counterexpert. His was the gut call. He was the everyman. He was jazz (some, in the telling, made it rap), everybody else an earnest folk music.
In the other reality, in which resided most of his antagonists, his virtues were grievous if not mental and criminal flaws. In this reality lived the media, which, with its conclusion of a misbegotten and bastard presidency, believed it could diminish him and wound him (and wind him up) and rob him of all credibility by relentlessly pointing out how literally wrong he was.
The book strengthens my convictions about how bad Trump is, but Wolff's comments about the media indicate he has some critical distance in establishing this. His evidence may not stand up in court but he appears, as I suspected, to be a credible source. There's more to the book* than the juicy bits that feed into that media version of reality.
==
*Which, I discovered in seeking the quote, you can now find online for free with ease
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Maybe it was this bad with your Nixon president but social media means we're aware and weren't then?
How many times did [EXPLETIVE DELETED] appear in the Nixon tape transcripts?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The book [Fire and Fury] strengthens my convictions about how bad Trump is, but Wolff's comments about the media indicate he has some critical distance in establishing this. His evidence may not stand up in court but he appears, as I suspected, to be a credible source. There's more to the book* than the juicy bits that feed into that media version of reality.
==
*Which, I discovered in seeking the quote, you can now find online for free with ease
Very interestingly Wikileaks decided to publish the entire text of the book online. This seems a bit suspicious since Fire and Fury isn't some secret document that needs to be leaked to serve the public interest, which is Wikileaks' ostensible raison d'être. It's a document available for sale to anyone who has the money to pay for it, or for free to anyone with a library card and a willingness to wait for an available copy. The only thing this seems likely to accomplish is to depress sales, essentially causing financial harm to a Trump critic. Given Wikileaks' role in disseminating hacked DNC e-mails, this seems like further evidence of partisan preference in the organization.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I'm sure Holt is going to enter the lists on that point. The publisher's duty is to defend its property; they have a best-seller on their hands and it's worth fighting for it.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
As with comedy, the key to taking good depositions is timing.
January 5: Trump mocks Steve Bannon via tweet.
January 9: Trump supporters fire Bannon from his job at Breitbart.
Sometime "last week" (January 8-12) Steve Bannon gets subpœnaed to appear before Mueller's grand jury*.
quote:
Stephen K. Bannon, President Trump’s former chief strategist, was subpoenaed last week by the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, to testify before a grand jury as part of the investigation into possible links between Mr. Trump’s associates and Russia, according to a person with direct knowledge of the matter.
The move marked the first time Mr. Mueller is known to have used a grand jury subpoena to seek information from a member of Mr. Trump’s inner circle. The special counsel’s office has used subpoenas before to seek information on Mr. Trump’s associates and their possible ties to Russia or other foreign governments.
The subpoena could be a negotiating tactic. Mr. Mueller is likely to allow Mr. Bannon to forgo the grand jury appearance if he agrees to instead be questioned by investigators in the less formal setting of the special counsel’s offices about ties between Mr. Trump’s associates and Russia and about the president’s conduct in office, according to the person, who would not be named discussing the case. But it was not clear why Mr. Mueller treated Mr. Bannon differently than the dozen administration officials who were interviewed in the final months of last year and were never served with a subpoena.
The administration only has something to worry about from this quarter if Bannon is a surly, vengeful man with a head full of compromising secrets and nothing much left to lose.
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*The New York Times[I] has a paywall that restricts non-subscribers to five articles per calendar month. Only click through if you're a [I]NYT subscriber or are willing to use one of your five monthly Times passes on an article about Steve Bannon.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
According to the Davis County GOP Chairwoman who commented on the above, the guy was surprised by the reactions he got. "I mean, seriously. He’s quite astounded [by] the repercussions of all of this.”
Frankly, the fact that he's surprised at people's objections is almost worse than the original comment.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
The administration only has something to worry about from this quarter if Bannon is a surly, vengeful man with a head full of compromising secrets and nothing much left to lose.
I'm hoping he sings like a canary. What has he got to lose at this point?
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I'm hoping he sings like a canary. What has he got to lose at this point?
The impression given is that he - of all people - has an attachment to 'Trumpism' in some form (he sees himself as keeper of the movements ideology). So he is unlikely to 'sing like a canary' though he may well say various injudicious things because he believes he can play '4 dimensional chess'.
So I suspect that any impact on Trump himself will be second/third order effects at best as a result of him pointing the figure at those he loathes (Jared Kushner, Ivanka Trump).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The book strengthens my convictions about how bad Trump is, but Wolff's comments about the media indicate he has some critical distance in establishing this. His evidence may not stand up in court but he appears, as I suspected, to be a credible source.
As I said up-thread, the picture the book paints comports with the visible bits of the administration - so in that sense it has a ring of truth to it.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Maybe it was this bad with your Nixon president but social media means we're aware and weren't then?
How many times did [EXPLETIVE DELETED] appear in the Nixon tape transcripts?
A whole heckuva lot, IIRC.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Given Wikileaks' role in disseminating hacked DNC e-mails, this seems like further evidence of partisan preference in the organization.
I read an article on Monday (behind a paywall) which basically said the same thing:
quote:
[Assange’s] collaboration with Russia’s president, Vladimir Putin, in the 2016 US elections, in favour of Donald Trump and against Hillary Clinton, should have alerted everybody that Wikileaks has become Assange’s private vehicle for conducting vendettas and campaigns. He used to be an anti-Western anarchist; now he’s just a rebel with a grudge who helps monstrous political leaders when it suits him.
[ 17. January 2018, 00:03: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
So trumpy had a medical. No confirmation of him being a "stable genius". They don't appear to have conducted an impulse control test, nor any tests of personality. I don't know if "pervert" and "shithole" can be diagnoses, and perhaps there's no need to confirm what we already know.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
A cognitive test doesn't test for mental illness. The one I had recently (my first annual physical since being on Medicare) asked me to spell a word backwards, to remember three words which she would ask me several minutes later, fold a piece of paper in half, etc.
She didn't test me to see if I was a stable genius.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
But if the test really happened, and he really passed all 30 questions, that supposedly means he doesn't have cognitive problems. Which seems extremely unlikely.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
So trumpy had a medical. No confirmation of him being a "stable genius". They don't appear to have conducted an impulse control test, nor any tests of personality. I don't know if "pervert" and "shithole" can be diagnoses, and perhaps there's no need to confirm what we already know.
I think it is an indication of a doctor in Trump’s pocket.
“He does not exercise, has a long history of eating McDonald’s and drinking Diet Coke, and is just short of obese. Yet Donald Trump’s health is “excellent”, his mind is “sharp” and he only needs four or five hours’ sleep a night, the presidential physician said on Tuesday.”
A GLOWING report!
But, like rotten teeth, we can only ignore such body abuse for so long. Eventually it catches up with us and no fine words will chase it away.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
But if the test really happened, and he really passed all 30 questions, that supposedly means he doesn't have cognitive problems. Which seems extremely unlikely.
Maybe it is about degree. I'm not a doctor so I'm probably completely wrong - but I suspect there are some conditions where one could pass the test but have impaired higher level functions.
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arse
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Here's another not-very-quoted-by-outraged-media bit of Fire and Fury, about a Trump meeting with fortune 100 CEOs early in the presidency. He doesn't sound very demential: quote:
Trump (...) conducted it entirely himself. Each of the people at the table, taking a point of interest, spoke for five minutes, with Trump then asking follow-up questions. Though Trump appeared not to have particularly, or at all, prepared for any of the subjects being discussed, he asked engaged and interested questions, pursuing things he wanted to know more about, making the meeting quite an easy back-and-forth. One of the CEOs observed that this seemed like the way Trump preferred to get information—talking about what he was interested in and getting other people to talk about his interests.
The meeting went on for two hours. In the White House view, this was Trump at his best.
What comes across to me from this is that Trump can come across as confused and distracted when he simply isn't interested. He's sociopathically self-absorbed, making no concessions at all to social convention when he doesn't see it as worth doing, and is not versed in the world of politics, but he has an active mind and plenty of animal cunning. He just doesn't function like most people.
I see no reason to doubt his health report, which also helps explain his sticking power.
In both these respects he reminds me of con artists I have known.
I'm strengthened in my conviction that he could well be in office until 2024 and that fascinating as all this speculation and fantasising is, it's a distraction from the real issues at stake, like getting out the Democrat vote and producing credible candidate(s).
[ 17. January 2018, 08:36: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Eutychus--
...except we here have to deal with the damage he is doing now, from shrinking national parks, to insulting immigrants and their countries, to still wanting that damn wall (and it would be a real wall--4 samples have been built in Southern California), to prodding N. Korea towards nuclear war.
Democratic election strategizing is all very well, but it doesn't fix things NOW.
Question: Have you watched any TV coverage of T? Not people talking about him, but T himself? IMHO, that makes all the difference in recognizing his many problems. Written words aren't enough.
I've seen 2 or 3 interviews with the "Fire & Fury" author. I have mixed feelings about him and his methods.
Eutychus, there are lots of things you are missing about T. You're going by what you have; but, respectfully, it isn't enough to understand what's going on.
FWIW.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Democratic election strategizing is all very well, but it doesn't fix things NOW.
What practical proposals do you have for "fixing things NOW" that don't compromise the system of government any more than it's already compromised?
Impeachment? Not going to happen unless the house majorities change.
25th Amendment? You are opening the door to just about any future President being removed on the vaguest of terms.
Armed insurrection? Are you sure?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Question: Have you watched any TV coverage of T? Not people talking about him, but T himself? IMHO, that makes all the difference in recognizing his many problems.
I have no doubt Trump has many problems, but I would be wary of drawing informed conclusions about them from what you see on TV.
Unless, of course, you are willing for people to draw conclusions about YOU (theoretically) from what you see portrayed of yourself in the media.
This whole problem has arisen in part due to people making judgements based on media perception.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Eutychus hits the nail on the head. Self-absorbed, sociopathic, animal cunning. Nasty piece of work.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Great joke by Tom Ballard about Trump and the news media, went something like: Come on news media. First you tell me that Trump is going to go to jail for the rest of his life, then you tell me he's going to marry my Mum.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Question: Have you watched any TV coverage of T? Not people talking about him, but T himself? IMHO, that makes all the difference in recognizing his many problems.
I have no doubt Trump has many problems, but I would be wary of drawing informed conclusions about them from what you see on TV.
Unless, of course, you are willing for people to draw conclusions about YOU (theoretically) from what you see portrayed of yourself in the media.
This whole problem has arisen in part due to people making judgements based on media perception.
Those judgements come from hope, wishful thinking imo
My hope is that his impairments get to him before he can do much more damage. How much stronger must that hope be in the US.
Whether those impairments are caused by his personality disorder or other condition or a mixture of both, who knows? Not his doctor by the look of it.
One thing about encroaching dementia ‘tho - it can be very intermittent. Total lucidity followed by periods of confusion, or just small lapses at the beginning.
I won’t stop hoping that he’s gone soon. And I know that saying it doesn’t make it so. I’d have faith in God if that were true ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Bearing in mind the age of DT I'd have expected the medical team in charge of the POTUS to include a geriatrician, since the speciality of the current White House Physician is Emergency Medicine, with particular expertise in Submarine & Hyperbaric medicine. In other words he could spot it if DT had symptoms indicating he had the Bends but might overlook signs of cognitive degeneration.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm strengthened in my conviction that he could well be in office until 2024 and that fascinating as all this speculation and fantasising is, it's a distraction from the real issues at stake, like getting out the Democrat vote and producing credible candidate(s).
I agree to a large extent[*]. During the election it was a frequent complaint from the Democratic side that the media was focusing on the minutia of Trump's ever utterance and therefore allowing him to set the agenda and missing the wider picture. How ironic then that this is the Democratic focus now .. and even when it comes to ameliorating particular policies the focus is more on the immediate outrage caused by the policy itself rather than the strategy required to reverse the trend [Partly because they seem to be intent on continuing to pose a politics of inevitability against the possibility of any change from the left - on which note see the following lecture from Timothy Snyder: https://youtu.be/6nEmBmGK5kM ]
In other ways - see the extension of warrantless surveillance above - the party machine gives the impression that they are quite comfortable with a Trump administration, and their actions tend to belie their words.
[*] I think 'low cunning' is a good way to describe Trump's personality, though the particular self focus he has is likely to only get worse over time, and lead to mental deterioration even absent any immediate medical cause. He may also decide he's bored of course.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
Mr T's behaviour is disquietingly similar to that of another self-proclaimed genius who was leader of a great nation.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And there is a new word for those who continue to contemplate Lyin' Don's health history in hope! I saw in in the Guardian: girthers.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
During the election it was a frequent complaint from the Democratic side that the media was focusing on the minutia of Trump's ever utterance and therefore allowing him to set the agenda and missing the wider picture.
Actually the biggest Democratic complaint about the media's coverage of the 2016 Presidential Election was the obsessive focus on e-mail management practices at the State Department from 2009 to 2013. Judging by coverage accrued, that was what the American media considered the most important issue facing voters in November 2016.
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
The cognitive test Trump supposedly got 100% doesn’t look all that taxing. It involves things like identifying a picture of a camel and drawing a picture of a clock. It’s not really meant to pick up dementia and the like.
It's not taxing, but it is a recognized high-level diagnostic tool. It's possible Trump was having a 'good day' when he took it. It's also possible that he doesn't have dementia, he's just a moron.
quote:
Note that [House majority leader Kevin] McCarthy was not walking the president through a complex technical policy requiring expertise in a field like science or economics. He was trying to explain the elections. He had to use pictures. It has been publicly known since last year that Trump cannot read a memo longer than a page, and any written material must be in bullet-point form. Trump himself admitted (or bragged) a year and a half ago that he does not read. “I never have. I’m always busy doing a lot. Now I’m more busy, I guess, than ever before.” By this point it is simply taken as a matter of course that people wishing to communicate with the president must treat him as though he is suffering a severe mental impairment.
Trump is not actually suffering a severe mental impairment. White House doctor Ronny Jackson, who has served in the post since 2013, informed reporters on Wednesday that the president is in fine physical and mental health. The report comes as the national media has discussed whether Trump’s functional near-illiteracy, minuscule attention span, and narcissistic pathos are the symptoms of dementia or some other kind of cognitive incapacitation. We should take Jackson’s diagnosis at face value. Trump is just an idiot.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
A friend summarized it more cogently: He's not sick. He's evil.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
According to the BBC website, you don't even have to draw a picture of a clock on the test, just be able to tell the time shown in the picture. This isn't a test to determine intelligence; it's a test to identify quickly whether any areas of intelligence have become considerably impaired. I'd expect an average 9 year old to be able to get 100%, possibly 80% if they weren't concentrating.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A friend summarized it more cogently: He's not sick. He's evil.
Just what I've been thinking. If he can't blame his behavior on dementia, he has no excuse for the horrid things he says and does.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I did the test c/o the BBC website, and scored 100% (to my relief). In all honesty, the mathematical question made me think, but then I've never been very good with numbers anyway.
Sadly, I think Pigwidgeon is right.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
So the long-awaited Fake News Awards are supposed to be announced tonight. The lack of build-up and fanfare (together with the press secretary referring to it as a "potential event" in yesterday's press conference) suggest to me that they are likely not going to happen.
(It's actually been a field-day for the late night shows, who have been submitting "for your consideration" reels to the press. Samantha Bee has been pressing for "shrillest fake news," and Trevor Noah has bragged that he's a shoe-in, given that he is literally "un-American".)
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It was fairly meaningless, they were trying to mirror the mini mental state examination. But - for example - the take 7 question is a test of working memory, so writing it down defeats the entire point of the question.
If they gave the president the mini mental state exam it would tell them very little. You have to be showing gross signs of cognitive dysfunction for that to show anything up - its a very crude measure. If he's slightly more disinhibited, or has mild attentional problems it wont show it. But they would be much more marked when he was overloaded with demand in real life.
[ 17. January 2018, 19:30: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
So the long-awaited Fake News Awards are supposed to be announced tonight. The lack of build-up and fanfare (together with the press secretary referring to it as a "potential event" in yesterday's press conference) suggest to me that they are likely not going to happen.
(It's actually been a field-day for the late night shows, who have been submitting "for your consideration" reels to the press. Samantha Bee has been pressing for "shrillest fake news," and Trevor Noah has bragged that he's a shoe-in, given that he is literally "un-American".)
They have via Twitter. No professional clowns made the list, but it's like a "Top 10" style list of demonstrably false, often retracted stories published about Trump over the last year or so.
I'd link but the page has now crashed.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Eutychus--
Note: I realized, last night, that we've had this same discussion at least a couple of times before. Didn't solve anything then, and won't now. So I'm just going to answer your two posts, then bow out of discussing this with you.
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Democratic election strategizing is all very well, but it doesn't fix things NOW.
What practical proposals do you have for "fixing things NOW" that don't compromise the system of government any more than it's already compromised?
Impeachment? Not going to happen unless the house majorities change.
25th Amendment? You are opening the door to just about any future President being removed on the vaguest of terms.
Armed insurrection? Are you sure?
I've never advocated violence. In fact, I've specifically stated "must be non-violent and legal" when non-USA folks ask why can't we get T out of office right now.
The 25th is there to be used, if and when there's an appropriate circumstance, as spelled out in the amendment. It's like having emergency rescue gear: you don't play with it, but it's there to use in an emergency.
Impeachment might be appropriate if it can get enough votes. Next election for Congress may help. And even some Congressional Republicans are getting sick of T.
Personally, I hope he'll decide that he's bored and ill-treated, and quit so he can be happier.
Then there's the Russian influence investigation. And more and more people in DC and elsewhere are standing up to T.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Eutychus--
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Golden Key:
[qb]Question: Have you watched any TV coverage of T? Not people talking about him, but T himself? IMHO, that makes all the difference in recognizing his many problems.
I have no doubt Trump has many problems, but I would be wary of drawing informed conclusions about them from what you see on TV.
Unless, of course, you are willing for people to draw conclusions about YOU (theore
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Eutychus--
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Question: Have you watched any TV coverage of T? Not people talking about him, but T himself? IMHO, that makes all the difference in recognizing his many problems.
I have no doubt Trump has many problems, but I would be wary of drawing informed conclusions about them from what you see on TV.
Unless, of course, you are willing for people to draw conclusions about YOU (theoretically) from what you see portrayed of yourself in the media.
This whole problem has arisen in part due to people making judgements based on media perception.
One way to learn about a person is to pay attention to them: watch them; listen to what they say and how; read their facial expressions and other non-verbal cues; see how they interact with other people; notice whether they appear sick or healthy; notice how they move, and if anything's changed about that. Etc.
If I voluntarily took the job of being US president, I would *expect* people to judge me on what they see. I wouldn't like it, but it goes with the job. And they can't all come see me in person, and get to know me over cocoa and cookies.
So we have to rely, at least partly, on what we see in TV coverage--bearing in mind that both the media and the White House have their own agendas.
It ain't always easy, but it's what we've got.
Watching T on TV, I can see when his mind obviously skips a gear, when he's furious, when he's totally out of control, when he's saying untruths but evidently believes them at the time he says them. I can see that he's looking less well lately, by his face and movements. Etc.
Best thing for everyone, including him, is to get him out of office. Otherwise, at the rate he's tearing it apart, we won't have much of a country anymore.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
**Dear H/As**:
Severe connection problems messed up my truncated post, which is 2 above this one.
Please remove it, when you get a chance.
Thanks! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
How does Trump change a lightbulb?
He doesn't, but he will say he did
And the Republicans will agree with him while they are sitting in the dark.
Little news item: A Wisconsin state senate seat flipped from the Republican side to the Democratic side. Why is this important? It was a rural district that Trump had won by 17 points. It goes to show his support in rural districts is slipping. More about the win here.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Meanwhile, 90% of the career diplomatic corps have left the State Department and nine out of twelve members of the National Parks advisory council resigned. USA Today Story
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
They have via Twitter. No professional clowns made the list, but it's like a "Top 10" style list of demonstrably false, often retracted stories published about Trump over the last year or so.
I'd link but the page has now crashed.
The roll-out was probably too much for what it was, which probably caused the crash.
But if you look at that page as an appeal to the base, it was undeniably well done. Demonstrably false and retracted stories, linking Russia, and then a list of accomplishments. And a fundraising pitch at the end.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
It was fairly meaningless, they were trying to mirror the mini mental state examination.
And Trump definitely has a mini mental state.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This whole problem has arisen in part due to people making judgements based on media perception.
This whole problem has arisen because our president is a screaming fascist pig. But seriously, for public figures like the president, what else CAN you base judgments upon other than media perception? A microscopic portion of the US populace have access to the man. The rest of us only have what's in the media.
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
How does Trump change a lightbulb?
He doesn't, but he will say he did
And the Republicans will agree with him while they are sitting in the dark.
Weirdly it doesn't end there. He will say he did, all the Republicans will agree he did, and then two days later he will say he didn't really. Why anyone would stump for this man eludes me. He will throw you under the bus just for the sheer joy of watching the contortions on your face as the wheels crush out your life.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This whole problem has arisen because our president is a screaming fascist pig. But seriously, for public figures like the president, what else CAN you base judgments upon other than media perception?
Obviously not my 401k.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
what else CAN you base judgments upon other than media perception? A microscopic portion of the US populace have access to the man. The rest of us only have what's in the media.
I realise it's a bit late, but this is much of why I got Wolff's book. It is less one-sided than one might imagine, for instance by summarising, sometimes acerbically but plausibly, the thinking of those in the Trump camp as well as that of his opponents.
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Why anyone would stump for this man eludes me. He will throw you under the bus just for the sheer joy of watching the contortions on your face as the wheels crush out your life.
I've long thought Trump is like Saruman: quote:
Those who listened unwarily to that voice could seldom report the words that they heard; and if they did, they wondered, for little power remained in them. Mostly they remembered only that it was a delight to hear the voice speaking, all that it said seemed wise and reasonable, and desire awoke in them by swift agreement to seem wise themselves. When others spoke they seemed harsh and uncouth by contrast; and if they gainsaid the voice, anger was kindled in the hearts of those under the spell. For some the spell lasted only while the voice spoke to them, and when it spake to another they smiled, as men do who see through a juggler's trick while others gape at it. For many the sound of the voice alone was enough to hold them enthralled; but for those whom it conquered the spell endured when they were far away. and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them.
Wolff repeatedly makes the point about Trump's charisma and compelling flattery of those he wishes to ingratiate.
I think just about everybody here is in the position of those "seeing through the juggler's trick" - but many seem oblivious to the fact that given the right circumstances, they could easily fall under the spell themselves, and that others have done.
Seriously, am I the only person here ever to have been conned?
Not seeing this is possible leads us to ridicule and belittle Trump supporters and by extension all Republicans, and the division that sows is I think one of the most damaging and probably one of the hardest aspects to undo of his presidency.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
No, you are not.
I was once charmed by a weasly narcissistic bully. So much so I applied for a job where she was boss.
It was only as I watched her go for a target and became a target myself, due to defending him, that I realised just how cleverly she charmed people and hid the bullying from everyone except the targets of her bullying.
Sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissistic people can act normal and act incredibly charming.
Is this the case with Trump? Well, I see no charm whatsoever. Maybe people are dazzled by his riches?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I don't think Trump is a conman. A con would be if it turned out that Obama, riding on a wave of support and admiration - actually believed things that were the opposite of his platform.
I don't see that. There is no con here: Trump is being quite opaque in saying and doing things that appeal to his base.
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arse
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