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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Daily offices
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
I've decided that I will allow myself a prayerbook for an Easter present but now I can't decide which.
Should I get the LA Press' Monastic Diurnal or the English Office? What do people think?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Should I get the LA Press' Monastic Diurnal or the English Office? What do people think?
I'll vote for the LA Press' Monastic Diurnal. I think it gives you more "stuff" for the money, stuff you don't already have.
As for The English Office, it's a great book, but you can pray most of it by praying the BCP office and using the English Hymnal office hymns.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Yes, that's what I was thinking, Scott. I think it'll probably be the MD, and the English Office at another point when money is less scarce.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Boadicea Trott
Shipmate
# 9621
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Posted
I am currently tussling with the decision between buying a copy of the new LA Monastic Diurnal or the Farnborough Latin/English Monastic Diurnal.
I want them both, but certainly can`t afford them both at present ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Does anyone who already has the OUP edition from which the LA version is drawn, and the Farnborough one, have a distinct preference either way ?
I do fancy resurrecting my dusty Latin and continuing the study in a serious way, hence the preference at present for the Latin/English one.
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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
David--whenever you have time, that web guide to BDP would be a Godsend! ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Don't get me wrong--BDP IS do-able, but it takes the divvil's own flipping of pages and lotsa head-scratching. A guide to the perplexed would be terrific, and I agree with Scott--the publishers should provide it.
You've come up against one of the perennial problems with a 'short breviary', which is that they're short because of abbreviation (well, it is a breviary, I suppose).
BDP is not as bad as the Anglican breviary in this respect, but it's worse than, for example, CWDP.
BDP is woefully rubricated for beginners, I will concede. One of the very first things I did with my copy was to extract the Benedictus and Magnificat antiphons from the Commons and copy them into the back of the book, which makes it much easier to do optional memoria and to deal with situations (like this evening, though it's proper not common so more help with other days than today) where feasts clash at Vespers.
Also, take absolutely no notice of the rubric in there that directs you to use the Common for just about everything, which is just plain silly. There are better ways to do it while preserving the ferial psalter.
All will be revealed. Next week, with a bit of luck. Though it won't be an ordo as I haven't got that much time on my hands!
Dave
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
Does anyone who already has the OUP edition from which the LA version is drawn, and the Farnborough one, have a distinct preference either way ?
I do fancy resurrecting my dusty Latin and continuing the study in a serious way, hence the preference at present for the Latin/English one.
Yes. My preference is for the all-English OUP edition (I'm awaiting my LA version with bated breath). But it sounds as though you're leaning toward the Latin/English one, and if you buy the Farnborough one, I believe you will be pleased. It's extremely well produced. Order that one with confidence.
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
Have been trying to figure the calender system in BDP.
Days marked as feasts are easy, they normally have propers and use the festal psalter.
For days marked as memorials, are we expected to
(a) use the office from the common/propers and the ferial psalter, or
(b) recite the ferial office and use the saint's day collect, or
(c) tag on a commemoration at the end of the office?
I've opted for (a) since memorials are often provided propers of its own.
For days marked as optional memorials are we talking about
(a) a memorial that is used to the discretion of the person praying or
(b) a saint's day that is one class lower than a memorial and hence uses a commemoration tagged to the end of the ferial office?
I've opted (a).
I have this impression that the newer rites have eliminated doing tagged on commemorations.
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
BDP is woefully rubricated for beginners, I will concede. One of the very first things I did with my copy was to extract the Benedictus and Magnificat antiphons from the Commons and copy them into the back of the book, which makes it much easier to do optional memoria and to deal with situations (like this evening, though it's proper not common so more help with other days than today) where feasts clash at Vespers.
Dave
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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Boadicea Trott
Shipmate
# 9621
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Posted
Scott, thank you for letting me know the Farnborough is a nice quality book. I think I will be ordering this week.
If I do order, this will be the sixth LOTH type book I have now. My husband keeps asking how many more prayer books I can possibly need ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I think at least three or four more ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 563 | From: Roaming the World in my imagination..... | Registered: Jun 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
Scott, thank you for letting me know the Farnborough is a nice quality book. I think I will be ordering this week.
It's very beautifully printed and bound. It is obvious that they considered it would be held and used very often. I love how they stitched around the edges to reinforce the leather. And the leather feels very good and will probably get softer with oil from being handled. A worthy purchase.
quote:
If I do order, this will be the sixth LOTH type book I have now. My husband keeps asking how many more prayer books I can possibly need I think at least three or four more
I've never met a breviary I didn't feel the need to own a copy of. It's time for me to impose a moratorium on my bookbuying and to eBay some books to help make up for recent purchases.
I have a particular fascination with breviaries, office books, and chant books that are used by monastic communities. The one I'm using now, the Saint Helena Breviary from the Order of Saint Helena, is excellent. I've been learning to chant from it, and I love its 71 canticles and fresh translations of hymns.
As of today's mail delivery, I now have the full set of office books from the Benedictine Abbey of Münsterschwarzach in Germany: the Vigils/Lauds volume, the Midday volume, the Vespers/Compline volume, the slim Triduum book, and the cantor's book. I previously had the whole set from St. Ottilien Abbey but decided to eBay it and go for this set, which has chant notation. The other one was all text. The St. Ottilien one brought a fine price on eBay.
Thank God there's eBay...there's a way to undo some of my excessive spending.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
As of today's mail delivery, I now have the full set of office books from the Benedictine Abbey of Münsterschwarzach in Germany: the Vigils/Lauds volume, the Midday volume, the Vespers/Compline volume, the slim Triduum book, and the cantor's book.
You mean this and this and this, correct? Being a native German speaker, it's tops of my list for "whenever I should get serious about the Divine Office". I would really appreciate your expert comments on these books. In particular if you have some knowledge of German and German liturgy (which presumably you do...).
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You mean this and this and this, correct? Being a native German speaker, it's tops of my list for "whenever I should get serious about the Divine Office". I would really appreciate your expert comments on these books. In particular if you have some knowledge of German and German liturgy (which presumably you do...).
Ja. Deutsch ist meine zweite Sprache.
This set is very well done. It's a working-out of the current Benedictine office according to the Thesaurus Liturgiae Horarum Monasticae, Scheme B, with a single Little Hour (Mittagshore) and all hours are fully chantable. Excellent pointing, typesetting, and binding. I like the separate lightweight books. Also comes with laminated cards with psalm tones and frequently used texts.
Precentor's book has Venite chants, chants for third-nocturn lessons for Christmas Matins and some other days, and long responsories (responsoria prolixa) for feasts and holy days.
If you order anything, order it from here. I learned the hard way not to order directly from the publisher's Web site, as they don't take credit cards, and I had to spend an extra $35 to wire them the money. Yikes. Then of course I discovered the monastery's bookshop (linked above) and its online ordering.
[ 26. March 2006, 00:03: Message edited by: Scott Knitter ]
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
I'm waiting for Church Publishing to release the more compact version of the St Helena Breviary. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Have been trying to figure the calender system in BDP.
Days marked as feasts are easy, they normally have propers and use the festal psalter.
For days marked as memorials, are we expected to
(a) use the office from the common/propers and the ferial psalter, or
(b) recite the ferial office and use the saint's day collect, or
(c) tag on a commemoration at the end of the office?
I've opted for (a) since memorials are often provided propers of its own.
I use a variation of (b): ferial psalter and ferial antiphons, with hymn, reading and anything proper for the memorial, otherwise supply from the Common. At Vigils, I read the ferial lessons, and add the proper lesson as a third reading, with a proper Resp. if there is one otherwise I move the ferial Resp. to after the third lesson.
quote:
For days marked as optional memorials are we talking about
(a) a memorial that is used to the discretion of the person praying or
(b) a saint's day that is one class lower than a memorial and hence uses a commemoration tagged to the end of the ferial office?
I've opted (a).
I have this impression that the newer rites have eliminated doing tagged on commemorations.
They have, but I like them.
If there's a Vigils lesson for an optional memoria, I'll read it as a third lesson but otherwise everything ferial until the collect: ferial collect first, then Gospel canticle antiphon followed by collect of the memoria.
In both cases, memoria and optional memoria, Terce, Sext and None are all ferial.
This seems to work quite well for me. It means Solemnities and Feasts get a full office, memorias vary the ferial office enough to give it a flavour of the day while preserving its ferial character, and optional memorias are very clearly tacked on to an otherwise wholly ferial office.
Dave
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
This seems to work quite well for me. It means Solemnities and Feasts get a full office, memorias vary the ferial office enough to give it a flavour of the day while preserving its ferial character, and optional memorias are very clearly tacked on to an otherwise wholly ferial office.
Dave [/QB]
Understood. It makes very good sense especially when we are having privileged ferias. Very sound way of coping with overlapping vespers too. Thanks.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by teddybear:
For those of you interested in something a bit different, the Melkite Catholics in the USA have published a new edition of the Horologion (Byzantine Office Book). It is published by Sophia Press Rumor has it that it is quite nice and the price is very good, only $39.50.
Looks good - perfect size. Any easier way of ordering one?
There's this Maronite Office that is always on ebay. But the price if forbidding.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
My LA Press Monastic Diurnal arrived Saturday morning, and I am delighted with it. I do have some minor criticisms (2nd to last paragraph).
Apologies for the long post - I expect some may be interested. I am also far from an expert on other books or the daily office, so be warned.
Measurements and other technical details are on the LA Press website at www.andrewespress.com. It is a small book (4"x6" and about an inch thick) and should travel exceedingly well.
The paper is gold-edged "bible paper". There are six sturdy if narrow ribbons. They have some sort of ribbing on the sides, but I suspect the old nail polish on the bottom edge may be a wise precaution.
I wish I knew more about bindings as I'm sure this production feature is of key interest to veterans. It seems well done to inexpert eyes. The book does not lie open flat to a page as of yet, but fits the hand well.
The content is from the 1963 (English-only) edition of the MD by OUP, to the point that there is a sticker on the inside of the cover page to identify the edition as being reprinted by LA Press 2006.
The book is a translation and partial adaptation of the day hours (all but matins) of the 1925 Benedictine monastic breviary. Scriptural texts are from the Authorized Version. Non-scriptural antiphons (there are a few, but not many) are translated rather than paraphrased. The preface has a remark about 'several collects based upon pious opinion' being changed; I took that to refer to those for the Assumption and Immaculate Conception. Generally, language asking for the intercession of saints is retained.
Where divergence between monastic and prayer book usage occurs, first is printed a red line across the column followed by the original monastic usage (translated), then a black line across the column, followed by the prayer book usage. There is a notation EPB (in red) or APB (in black) to point you to English or American usage where these prayerbooks differ.
In addition to what you'd expect (psalter, propers of seasons etc.), the contents include: general rubrics for 1926, a separate section with the adaptations of 1956-1962, tables of rank, occurrence and concurrence of feasts, indices of where the psalms appear (by Latin title, by English title, and by number), similar indices of canticles and hymns, and an alphabetical index of all feasts and saints. These latter indices would be very handy for someone seeking to adapt the book to another calendar or psalter!!! Nice touch.
Additionally there is an Appendix with the following: short form of absolution, short form of unction, order of commendation of a soul, itinerary (prayers for travellers), an extensive preparation for mass, thanksgiving after mass, and the sacrament of pennance. There are also sections on 'Gradual psalms' and the penetential psalms, and the litany.
The text to be recited/sung is printed in what appears to be 12 point type to my eyes; rubrics are often printed smaller, in red.
The two-column format means that you don't scan very far to get to the end of a line. That took some getting used to, but I'm o.k. with that now.
For the inevitable flipping that must be done, the book seems to be very good about giving you the exact page number to flip to. The main matter is numbered separately from the additional matter, whose page numbers are of the form 1*, 2*, 3*, etc.
It is a real joy to pray using this book together with the Monastic Diurnal Noted from LA Press. Now I just need a good source for matins - no readings here, so not having matins is an issue.
Complaints are minor and have to do with some production issues:
1) The red and black text have obviously been printed in two runs; they don't always line up perfectly - I have "flying caps" in the heading for 'The Annunciation of the Virgin Mary' They are, however, always legible. Perhaps this is just to be expected. I do not know if this heralds from the original or if this is a problem in the reproduction alone.
2) The cover is rather nice leather, but I'm not so happy about how it is affixed. The leather is wrapped over stiff paper and then there is another sheet of stiff paper glued to the inside to cover the edges of the leather. In my copy, there is a small tear or hole in this second sheet against the binding inside the front cover. In the back cover, the glue holding the second sheet to the leather didn't stick along the top edge. Perhaps minor defects, but they were unexpected. It also may only be a problem in my particular case.
Finally, as a reward for the person who PM's me first (and who made it this far in this rather boring review), my order came with a coupon for $5 off an order of the MD, the MDN, the St. Dunstan Psalter, or Neale's Commentary on the Psalms from LA Press. I have three of these and can't afford the fourth. So whoever contacts me first can have the coupon. I can mail it to you if you send a postal address or, since it is usable with a 4 digit code on pay pal, supply you with the code and destroy the coupon.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
I'm waiting for Church Publishing to release the more compact version of the St Helena Breviary.
The Monastic Edition does weigh a lot, doesn't it? Does yours make cracking noises when you open it?
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
I have a question regarding the psalms and how people pray them.
What should our intentions be when reciting/chanting those really awful bits of the psalms as part of the office? You know, all the cursing of enemies and the 'justified' dashing of babies against rocks, and so forth.
I'm sure there are very kerygmania aspects about what the passages really mean and so forth, but I'm specifically interested in their use in the context in praying the daily office. For example, is it enough to remember this or that bit of ancient history, and say in one's mind "but I don't really mean this" while praying?
I've tried thinking of them allegorically; the 'enemy' or some such becomes a personification of my sins. Fortunate indeed, then, is the man (hopefully myself) who crushes the offspring of my sins. And so forth.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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Lou Poulain
Shipmate
# 1587
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
I have a question regarding the psalms and how people pray them.
...
I've tried thinking of them allegorically; the 'enemy' or some such becomes a personification of my sins. Fortunate indeed, then, is the man (hopefully myself) who crushes the offspring of my sins. And so forth.
That's a bit of mental gymnastics that is beyond me. I take those passages of the psalms as reminders of the humaniy that the psalmists and I share, and recognize how often I feel those same vengeful feelings myself...and pray for forgiveness.
Lou
Posts: 526 | From: Sunnyvale CA USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sub Hoc Signo Vinces
Shipmate
# 11086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Choirboy:
My LA Press Monastic Diurnal arrived Saturday morning, and I am delighted with it.
I received my Monastic Diurnal yesterday - pretty speedy delivery to the UK!
I am very pleased indeed with it - especially its comfortable size in the hand and the fullness of the provision. Much richer than the English Office in this respect, IMHO.
One thing surprised me. I used it to say Compline last night, departing from my almost invariable practice of using LOTH. When I got to p.151, I would have expected to have the Nunc Dimittis with the usual antiphon after "R. Hide us under the shadow of thy wings." Instead, there is no Nunc Dimittis and we go straight on to the Kyries.
I looked in my pre-Vatican II Latin breviary and the Nunc Dimittis is where you would expect it to be. It is there in LOTH and Divine Office, of course. It is also there in the new Benedictine Daily Prayer.
I am stumped and simply cannot account for the absence of what one would have thought of as a pretty essential part of Compline.
I don't like to jump to the conclusion that is a printing error (although I have not had time to look at the Oxford University Press original).
Can anyone throw any light on this? If it were a Benedictine monastic habit to omit the Nunc Dimittis, you might have expected it to be missing from the new Benedictine Daily Prayer as well. (I am also pretty sure that we had the Nunc when I was on retreat with the Benedictines at Downside a couple of years ago, but my memory might be playing tricks.)
Regards,
SHSV (Perplexed)
Posts: 139 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2006
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sub Hoc Signo Vinces:
One thing surprised me. I used it to say Compline last night, departing from my almost invariable practice of using LOTH. When I got to p.151, I would have expected to have the Nunc Dimittis with the usual antiphon after "R. Hide us under the shadow of thy wings." Instead, there is no Nunc Dimittis and we go straight on to the Kyries.
SHSV (Perplexed)
Benedict's compline was simple and did not include the gospel canticle. Canon Douglas translated the breviary that also lacks the Nunc Dimittis.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
Also received my LA Press Monastic Diurnal this morning. The publishers are to be congratulated on the speed of despatch from the USA.
I've only had a brief look at it so far, but it seems a beautiful book which is compact enough to use when travelling. The standard of printing and reproduction seems excellent.
I noticed the section which explains the changes to the rubrics of the breviary introduced between 1956 and 1962, such as the omission of the Our Father and Hail Mary before each Office. It occurred to me that it would be handy if someone was to produce a booklet explaining how these later rubrical changes could be applied to the equally beautiful Anglican Breviary.
I look forward to using the LA Press Monastic Diurnal. I will also use the Farnborough Abbey version when I wish to have a go at praying the Office in Latin.
DIVINE OFFICE
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sub Hoc Signo Vinces:
I looked in my pre-Vatican II Latin breviary and the Nunc Dimittis is where you would expect it to be. It is there in LOTH and Divine Office, of course. It is also there in the new Benedictine Daily Prayer.
Nunc dimittis never formed part of monastic Compline. It was a later addition to the Roman version of the hour, but was never added to the service in the official Benedictine office books (the last of which was published in 1962).
Modern Benedictine practice is to include it.
Dave
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
Modern Benedictine practice is to include it.
Yes. The Thesaurus Liturgiae Horarum Monasticae (the current official Benedictine office but not as binding on communities as the former Breviarium Monasticum) gives the Nunc as a standard element in Compline:
(the numbers started with 1. Invitatorium before Vigils)
AD COMPLETORIUM
58. Introductio
(Lectio spiritualis ad libitum)
59. Conscientiae discussio
60. Hymnus
61. Psalmodia
62. Lectio brevis
63. Responsorium breve
64. Canticum evangelicum (Nunc dimittis)
65. Oratio conclusiva
66. Benedictio
67. Antiphona de Beata Maria Virgine
[ 29. March 2006, 12:45: Message edited by: Scott Knitter ]
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Pre-liturgical reform, then, would Benedictine monks never have recited the Nunc?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Boadicea Trott
Shipmate
# 9621
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Posted
Ian`t it in Vespers instead ?
Just wondering.......
I`m still dithering between Farnborough and LA ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
[ 29. March 2006, 14:53: Message edited by: Boadicea Trott ]
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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 563 | From: Roaming the World in my imagination..... | Registered: Jun 2005
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
Ian`t it in Vespers instead ?
Just wondering.......
I`m still dithering between Farnborough and LA
Nope...the Nunc dimittis was not in the old monastic office at all. Cranmer was the one who conflated elements of Vespers and Compline into Evening Prayer/Evensong, bringing the Nunc into EP.
On the dithering, you just have to decide whether Latin or Coverdale English is more important. The Farnborough has Latin and a good traditional English, although not Coverdale. The Farnborough also is in a higher-quality binding. The English-only OUP MD reprint is slimmer and has Coverdale.
That doesn't help, I'm sure. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Sub Hoc Signo Vinces
Shipmate
# 11086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
Nunc dimittis never formed part of monastic Compline.
Thank you all very much. It is very good to be able to post a query on here and get so many helpful answers so quickly!
I had simply not realized that the Nunc was absent from the old monastic compline.
I had also got it into my head that Cranmer had (crudely speaking) put together Evening Prayer out of elements taken from Lauds and Compline in the Roman Breviary and that this is why the BCP EP has both Mag and Nunc. Is this correct? If so, I suppose that Cranmer must have been using the secular breviaries and not the monastic ones (or, more likely, using both but following the secular ones more closely).
Regards to all,
SHSV
Posts: 139 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2006
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Sub Hoc Signo Vinces
Shipmate
# 11086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Nope...the Nunc dimittis was not in the old monastic office at all. Cranmer was the one who conflated elements of Vespers and Compline into Evening Prayer/Evensong, bringing the Nunc into EP.
Dear Scott,
Thanks. We seem to have "crossed in the post". I was writing my piece and then had a phone call and did not check back before posting. You've really answered my question before it was asked!
Regards,
Simon
Posts: 139 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2006
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Pre-liturgical reform, then, would Benedictine monks never have recited the Nunc?
Correct.
Dave
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sub Hoc Signo Vinces:
...Cranmer must have been using the secular breviaries and not the monastic ones (or, more likely, using both but following the secular ones more closely).
Secular breviary, yes, but Sarum not Roman.
Dave
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
The Monastic Edition does weigh a lot, doesn't it? Does yours make cracking noises when you open it? [/QB]
No it doesn't. opens flat quite well.
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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Boadicea Trott
Shipmate
# 9621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
On the dithering, you just have to decide whether Latin or Coverdale English is more important. The Farnborough has Latin and a good traditional English, although not Coverdale. The Farnborough also is in a higher-quality binding. The English-only OUP MD reprint is slimmer and has Coverdale.
That doesn't help, I'm sure.
Scott, it has helped immensely - now I have decided I simply must have both of them , as I need the Coverdale psalms and the Latin versions too
I`ll just have to save up quickly!
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X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 563 | From: Roaming the World in my imagination..... | Registered: Jun 2005
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
now I have decided I simply must have both of them , as I need the Coverdale psalms and the Latin versions too[/QB]
I also could not get by without both versions, as they complement each other very well. I need The English Office too!!
I may attempt to pray Matins and Evensong from The English Office and Terce, Sext, None and Compline from the LA Press Monastic Diurnal.
On Sundays, I may attempt Compline in Latin from the Farnborough Abbey Press MD.
For how long I will succeed in maintaining this regime remains to be seen!!
PS It did also occur to me that the order of Matins in The English Office might be enhanced slightly by using an alternative canticle from the 1979 ECUSA BCP or the RC Book of Divine Worship between the first and second readings, instead of only Te Deum or Benedicite.
For example, the Scottish Prayer Book of 1929 permits Benedictus es at this point, I think, which also appears in the ECUSA BCP and the BDW.
DIVINE OFFICE
Posts: 309 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Divine Office
Shipmate
# 10558
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Posted
PPS Matins from The English Office could also be enhanced by including a third non-scriptural reading from the RC LOH/Divine Office or another source, and concluding with the day's intercessions from the LOH/Divine Office order of Morning Prayer, followed perhaps by the Prayer of St Chrysostom.
All this requires juggling with several books, but it is interesting to experiment!
DIVINE OFFICE
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
I've googled and can't find one, but is anyone aware of the presence of a (current) Liturgy of the Hours/Divine Office schema on the internet?
Many thanks if so!
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I've googled and can't find one, but is anyone aware of the presence of a (current) Liturgy of the Hours/Divine Office schema on the internet?
By "schema," do you mean psalm table, or complete texts of offices?
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
I meant 'table of psalms' - am I using it incorrectly? ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Ah, refining my googling has yielded results . Unfortunately, it doesn't set out the psalms for Prayer during the Day, but it's a start.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I meant 'table of psalms' - am I using it incorrectly?
You used it perfectly. Here's the schema.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I meant 'table of psalms' - am I using it incorrectly?
You used it perfectly. Here's the schema.
I should also point out this link to many other psalter schemas.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
Y'know, seeing all those options on one page only adds to my sense of despair that I will never actually before I die manage to learn to pray the hours.
Complicated by the fact that I really want/need to chant them in Latin.*
Is there a book that would best serve me as a first step on this journey? How do I get over the hump of sorting out which rubrics to obey and which to ignore while figuring out how the basics work without getting confused and lost in the details of the full Office?
*ETA: ...because when I read psalms and scripture I either find myself mentally singing bits and pieces of sacred works based on the text or alternating between speed-reading into a state of glazed-over-brain and forcing myself to re-read repeatedly because my mind wanders. Neither state very meditative or useful, unlike the singing.
[ 31. March 2006, 23:04: Message edited by: jlg ]
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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Choirboy
Shipmate
# 9659
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Posted
If it is issues concerning rubrics, rather than actually finding the time for the different prayer slots on a daily basis, I suggest just getting your favorite breviary, but easing into the hours slowly. The Anglican Breviary site has a tutorial (mentioned previously at www.anglicanbreviary.com). It starts you with compline, and when you've got that down adds this bit and then that bit, always escalating the amount of variable portions and rubrics but in a measured way.
Some simplified books may be better than others, but the only really difficult bits of the office are working out the commemorations at lauds and vespers and octaves and such. You won't get any flavor of that at all without a full breviary anyway.
Following the tutorial on the Anglican Breviary website has you start by using the breviary as a simplified book and gradually ramping it up.
Posts: 2994 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA | Registered: Jun 2005
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
I tried that, but it made me realize that merely reading the hours doesn't work for me, I need to chant/sing them. And while I can make up a pseudo-chant on the fly while reading, it's not quite the same thing as following a previously thought-out setting to a particular mode. I've got the St Dunstan's Psalter and a copy of Liber Usualis, as well as some other sources of musical settings, but trying to coordinate those with a Breviary turns a simple one-minute chant of a psalm into a twenty minute or more treasure hunt (especially since I'm easily distracted when searching through a book).
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
jlg, I know exactly what you mean. Is there any chance of finding a parish/religious community close by that does communal hours?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
a simple one-minute chant of a psalm into a twenty minute or more treasure hunt (especially since I'm easily distracted when searching through a book).
You can a copy of one of the following
1)Monastic Diurnal Noted
2) Monastic Diurnal (Revised) Noted
3) St Helena Breviary (Monastic Edition)
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
jlg, I know exactly what you mean. Is there any chance of finding a parish/religious community close by that does communal hours?
In Latin? Good luck!
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
In Latin? Good luck!
Well, I have one in five minute walking distance. But thanks, anyway.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Clavus
Shipmate
# 9427
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Posted
jlg: Yes, it's a bit of a nightmare! What I do is sing the modern secular Roman Lauds and Vespers (only) in ordinary time (only). For that I need the Latin text and the music for the antiphons for the four-week psalter. I use:
1) P. Stravinskas, Lauds and Vespers (Latin-English, Per Annum). This was published in 2001 and reprinted in 2003. The corresponding volumes for saints and seasons have not been published and I suspect they won't be. The English version used for the psalms is not very helpful, as there are many places where the verse numbering, the verses included, and the principles of translation from the original sources are quite different, so it's not a very reliable help in learning Latin! But at least it gives you the four-week psalter in Latin with antiphons 'per annum', and it's relatively cheap.
2) Follow this link: Antiphonale Romanum (Don't worry that the page header says 'Tridentinische Messe' and that it's in German!), click on 'Nocturnale' at top, click on 'wissenschaftlicher Diskurs' on the left, click on 'Liturgia Horarum I' in the second column, click on 'Antiphonae IV Hebdomarum' in the first column, and save this .pdf file. This gives the music for the antiphons and the tones for the psalms. I would have to point the psalms as I go, but in practice I just sing the antiphons and recite the psalms.
You can listen to Lauds and Vespers in Latin, sometimes (not always) sung to this plainchant, daily on Vatican Radio Broadcast on demand.
Posts: 389 | From: The Indian Summer of the C of E | Registered: May 2005
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
In Latin? Good luck!
Well, I have one in five minute walking distance. But thanks, anyway.
Ah, Melbourne. Sigh.
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
Posts: 2901 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Jun 2001
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