Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Doctor Who: Silence will fall - the Doctor Who thread returns
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Lola
Ship's kink
# 627
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Posted
Yes - great lines. Also the Doctor being very nurse-like (as opposed to Doctor like) with Lorna - comforting the dying that nothing could be done for.
But if River is the child that was in the space suit then she killed (or believes she killed or killed a flesh avatar of) the Doctor at the start of the series. Also - can't remember the early episodes clearly - why wouldn't she remember that when they turned up at the lake and watched it happen?
Posts: 951 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Revolutionist
Shipmate
# 4578
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Posted
Fantastic! I spotted the Melody Pond - River Song connection, but the reveal was handled magnificently. Loved the supporting characters - Dorium, the Victorian Silurian, the Sontaran nurse and so on. Loads of punch the air moments, and a few to bring tears to the eyes as well.
I can't wait to cover it for Impossible Podcasts - we'll get our review and commentary up ASAP.
Posts: 1296 | From: London | Registered: May 2003
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Ceannaideach
Shipmate
# 12007
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lola: But if River is the child that was in the space suit then she killed (or believes she killed or killed a flesh avatar of) the Doctor at the start of the series. Also - can't remember the early episodes clearly - why wouldn't she remember that when they turned up at the lake and watched it happen?
You know I'm not too sure that she didn't remember. After she'd unloaded her gun at the disappearing astronaut she seemed to pause as if remembering something and murmured "Of course,"
Which set off a bell in my mind at the time but I didn't pursue the thought further.
-------------------- "I dream of the day when I will learn to stop asking questions for which I will regret learning the answers." - Roy Greenhilt OOTS
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I am still not convinced that the girl in the spacesuit is River. I think this is a question for the second part of the series.
And I should point out that I mentioned the River and Pond connection. You can tell me how clever I am later.
Lover the episode - yes some star wars, but seeing Rory become a real warrior was fabulous. The Sontaran nurse was fantastic. As were the headless Monks. The tied up necks were scary and cool at the same time.
-------------------- Blog Music for your enjoyment Lord may all my hard times be healing times take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
It is fantastic to find out that there will be a female papal mainframe.
-------------------- If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
I'm not a huge fan of the "bring together a bunch of old enemies" because haven't we done that three or four times now?
Still, a lot of fun overall and some nice lines. Including one very naughty one pitched to go over the kids heads (hopefully!)
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Nice lines, but not sure the whole thing adds up.
And the Doctor blows up an entire Cyber Fleet to get information out of them? Don't they count as sentient beings any longer?
-------------------- Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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St Everild
Shipmate
# 3626
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Posted
At last - proper "Who" again.
Loved it!
Posts: 1782 | From: Bethnei | Registered: Dec 2002
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
Completely, utterly brilliant. Will need to watch it at least one more time to come near to understanding it but that's not really the point is it? Who was it who said 'the only water in the forest is in the river'? Was it one of the gangers? When the girl gave Amy the prayer leaf I found myself blurting it out and starting to put two and two together. I love it when I can almost guess the ending. Really, really loved the giggly look on the Dr's face when he realised he'd been snogging Amy and Rory's daughter.
-------------------- tessaB eating chocolate to the glory of God Holiday cottage near Rye
Posts: 1068 | From: U.K. | Registered: Sep 2004
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
I agree. It was great and I will need to watch it (and probably the rest of the series) again.
-------------------- If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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itokro
Shipmate
# 16135
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by tessaB: Who was it who said 'the only water in the forest is in the river'? Was it one of the gangers?
It was the TARDIS, while in Idris' body.
Posts: 74 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2011
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tessaB
Shipmate
# 8533
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by itokro: quote: Originally posted by tessaB: Who was it who said 'the only water in the forest is in the river'? Was it one of the gangers?
It was the TARDIS, while in Idris' body.
Of course it was! Thanks itokro, glad someone is more on the ball than me!
-------------------- tessaB eating chocolate to the glory of God Holiday cottage near Rye
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
If River is in jail and working out her penance for 'killing a good man' does this mean that she has been brought up to be the weapon?
On the other hand she escaped the silents and the spacesuit, no reason it had to be her back in the suit 30 years later at the start of the series. When the doctor says he knows where to find her does he mean he needs to go back to 1st/2nd episode timeline to find her?
And if Amy was replaced before the start of the series it was the copy who raised the question about the pregnancy. But he said that her mind and soul were with the copy - are we talking more like the matrix than the early gangers of last week??
Lots of late night thoughts...
-------------------- http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
S-cat, I think I was before you on the names - but it was on the irritating character thread.
I'm not sure what I think of this last episode. There's been rather a lot of ganging up on the Doctor and seeing him as a sort of Shiva, but one who must be destroyed, since the start of the new version.
If you watched Confidential, you will have spotted that Moffat has it in for the church, believing that the current non-Militant state is a temporary aberration, and the headless monks are the obvious end of religion. (I think that's what he said.) The conversion process was very, very nasty.
Penny. [ 05. June 2011, 00:35: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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angelica37
Shipmate
# 8478
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Posted
The whole 'Church' thing was the only bit that I didn't like. In my opinion it was gratuitously anti Christian, anti Catholic and also completely unoriginal (Philip Pullman and Dan Brown anyone?) Moffat has gone down in my estimation I'm afraid.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I haven't see all of all the episodes, so has anything happened that would absolutely rule out the astronaut being, in fact, the Doctor? (given that there were multiples of him knocking about at one point).
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by wilson: Still, a lot of fun overall and some nice lines. Including one very naughty one pitched to go over the kids heads (hopefully!)
Do you mean the one about Amy and Rory spending their wedding night on the Tardis?
I've got the uncomfortable feeling I'm missing a lot, but have to confess I've been feeling a bit impatient with the Doctor who seems to have developed some immature characteristics he didn't have before (maybe related to River's previous comments about him getting younger as she gets older...?). We watched it as a family, a friend with us as well, and we were all disappointed with who River turned out to be. We thought it spoiled the whole thing.
-------------------- They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
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Tom Day
Ship's revolutionary
# 3630
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Nenya: quote: Originally posted by wilson: Still, a lot of fun overall and some nice lines. Including one very naughty one pitched to go over the kids heads (hopefully!)
Do you mean the one about Amy and Rory spending their wedding night on the Tardis?
I thought it was the one that River Song said about her birthdays and there being 2 doctor's!
I really enjoyed it, there were a few twists in the storyline, and some good fun characters - as others have said I also really enjoyed the Sontaran nurse! I do have to say though that the 7 episodes have left me slightly confused - the storyline does not seem to have been that easy to follow. And the doctor suggesting that Amy had been 'swapped' before America was interesting - I had thought that she was swapped during the Silence episode when she was captured.
All in all though I enjoyed the series so far and the episode. It is a shame we have to wait till the autumn now but hey!
Tom
-------------------- My allotment blog
Posts: 6473 | From: My Sofa | Registered: Dec 2002
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joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Tom Day: quote: Originally posted by Nenya: quote: Originally posted by wilson: Still, a lot of fun overall and some nice lines. Including one very naughty one pitched to go over the kids heads (hopefully!)
Do you mean the one about Amy and Rory spending their wedding night on the Tardis?
I thought it was the one that River Song said about her birthdays and there being 2 doctor's!
I really enjoyed it, there were a few twists in the storyline, and some good fun characters - as others have said I also really enjoyed the Sontaran nurse! I do have to say though that the 7 episodes have left me slightly confused - the storyline does not seem to have been that easy to follow. And the doctor suggesting that Amy had been 'swapped' before America was interesting - I had thought that she was swapped during the Silence episode when she was captured.
All in all though I enjoyed the series so far and the episode. It is a shame we have to wait till the autumn now but hey!
Tom
Ahhh, I thought it was the Sontaran nurse's comment about breast milk...
-------------------- Jesus saves, Allah protects, Buddha enlightens, Cthulhu thinks you'll make a nice sandwich
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by joan knox: quote: Originally posted by Tom Day: quote: Originally posted by Nenya: quote: Originally posted by wilson: Still, a lot of fun overall and some nice lines. Including one very naughty one pitched to go over the kids heads (hopefully!)
Do you mean the one about Amy and Rory spending their wedding night on the Tardis?
I thought it was the one that River Song said about her birthdays and there being 2 doctor's!
Ahhh, I thought it was the Sontaran nurse's comment about breast milk...
There are obviously more potentially naughty lines than I realised.
-------------------- They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
There were a few such lines . I quite liked "We're the Thin Fat Married Gay Anglican couple. Do we need names as well?"
Not too sure about the denouement of River being Amy's daughter (yuk, poor River) but at least she wasn't a shape-changing alien.
However, the whole episode seemed to rush past in a flood of allusions I mostly either didn't get or only got belatedly. I wasn't too keen on the messianic approach to the Doctor who was busy trying to win the Last Battle/Armageddon/Ragnarok without any real explanation or lead-up to what this was about. What the show's intended target audience of children made of all this I can't imagine.
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Nenya: quote: Originally posted by wilson: Still, a lot of fun overall and some nice lines. Including one very naughty one pitched to go over the kids heads (hopefully!)
Do you mean the one about Amy and Rory spending their wedding night on the Tardis?
I meant the scene where the Victorian Silurian and her maid/lover are in the control room and she says something about all mammals looking alike. Then she says, "Oh was I being insensitive again? I don't know why you put up with me." At which point her very long, agile lizard tongue flicks out to stop the soldiers escaping. The women exchange a brief meaningful glance.
OK, so I have a filthy mind...
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Eigon
Shipmate
# 4917
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Posted
The Victorian Silurian is really cool! And very gay. The bit where the Sontaran is dying and Rory says "Hang on - you're a warrior," and the Sontaran says "I'm a nurse." Since Rory has been saying "I'm a nurse" throughout the season, I thought that was a bit - kind of twisting the knife, but I'm not sure why. But Rory was totally awesome when facing down the Cybermen. And I did like the return, if ever so briefly, of the Spitfires in Space and the pirates. The blue guy was rather Sidney Greenstreet, wasn't he?
-------------------- Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
Posts: 3710 | From: Hay-on-Wye, town of books | Registered: Aug 2003
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by wilson:
[/qb]
I meant the scene where the Victorian Silurian and her maid/lover are in the control room and she says something about all mammals looking alike. Then she says, "Oh was I being insensitive again? I don't know why you put up with me." At which point her very long, agile lizard tongue flicks out to stop the soldiers escaping. The women exchange a brief meaningful glance.
OK, so I have a filthy mind... [/QB][/QUOTE]
Well with a tongue like that, what girl could resist?
-------------------- For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
What I want to know is whether Moffat had decided who River Song was back when he wrote Time of Angels/ Forest of the Dead. Because some of the dialogue between River and Amy in that must be interesting with hindsight.
-------------------- we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I think Moffat falls far short of Pullman's take on organised church - which is seriously thought out - but I suspect has something more behind it than Dan Brown, who I think is merely silly.
I suspect, from watching Moffat in his interview, that he is one of those who has fallen foul of some representative of one or another of the churches, a representative who has himself (probably male) fallen short of what we would hope such a person to be. Having known something of the sort in my family, and in a friend's life, I know how this sort of thing can rankle (and that's an understatement). He seemed to take the activities of churches more personally than simply extrapolating from the historical activities of Inquisitors and Witch Finders General, modified by observations of the excesses of the Westboro Baptists.
Which is not an excuse.
Penny [ 05. June 2011, 20:49: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eigon: The Victorian Silurian is really cool! And very gay.
It's nice to see a Silurian who's on good terms with humans after all this time. (I wonder whether Moffat's read Fingersmith or other Sarah Waters?)
-------------------- we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
So, my question; could it be the Doctor killing the Doctor?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
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Posted
Checking in for the first time in ages on this thread (or any other for that matter) to place myself in the 'loving it' camp. The characters were great, and the Sontaran nurse seems to be gathering his own fan club. Loved the 'River Song' mystery being largely due to a translation issue, and as someone has said it was beautifully handled. The tiny shake of Amy's head was probably the single best piece of acting we've seen from her. I too wondered why though, if it was River in the spacesuit, she didn't remember killing the Doctor, or whoever - unless something timey-wimey has happened in the meantime to alter her memory.
I know he isn't everyone's cup of tea (or bag of jelly babies), but I have to say I think Matt Smith is coming into his own. He was funny and moving, and I loved the look on his face on 'the only time they were together in the Tardis was on their w... '
I'm sure I didn't dream the little teaser after the end credits (even though it isn't showing on iPlayer), but nobody has mentioned it - if anyone else saw it, what did you make of it?
(Ooh, cross-posted with Firenze - didn't think of that!) [ 05. June 2011, 21:09: Message edited by: Stumbling Pilgrim ]
-------------------- Stumbling in the Master's footsteps as best I can.
Posts: 492 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
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The Revolutionist
Shipmate
# 4578
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Posted
Having seen it a second time for the podcast commentary (now online, link in my sig!), I still enjoyed it loads. But I did think that the ending wasn't as much of a cliffhanger as it could have been. River Song turning up and saying "It's me, and everything's going to be okay" isn't as dramatic as her turning up and saying "It's me, so unless you find the baby, you'll have never met me", which would have upped the stakes somewhat.
When Moffat hyped up the "game-changing cliffhanger", I thought I'd be gagging to find out what happens next, but I'm not particularly. I'm looking forward to the second half of the next series, but as a cliffhanger, it lacks urgency.
Quibbles aside, still brilliant!
Posts: 1296 | From: London | Registered: May 2003
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ceannaideach: quote: Originally posted by Lola: But if River is the child that was in the space suit then she killed (or believes she killed or killed a flesh avatar of) the Doctor at the start of the series. Also - can't remember the early episodes clearly - why wouldn't she remember that when they turned up at the lake and watched it happen?
You know I'm not too sure that she didn't remember. After she'd unloaded her gun at the disappearing astronaut she seemed to pause as if remembering something and murmured "Of course,"
Which set off a bell in my mind at the time but I didn't pursue the thought further.
having just rewatched ep 1 & 2 (with subs to be sure!) what she says is 'of course not' which I read as trying to shoot spacesuit but then realising no point - of course it couldn't have happened that way. Which would fit if it was her past/his future???
And at the death Amy or Rory ask about duplicates, plastic etc and Canton thingy 3rd says he knows for sure it is the real doctor.
And as for the silents...they must have got to me, I had completely forgotten Amy's capture by them!! When people referred to possibly swap moments I was thinking about the running and 3 month gap.
Going back with hindsight is great for picking up the hints, from the armies would seek a single timelord cell hence the burning, and the whole army in this week's.
Were the silents entrusted with her safety or did they pinch her from the home where the others had put her?
When Amy was captured by them they said her part was short but that she would bring the silence... hmmm...
-------------------- http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Two questions.
At one stage, the Doctor sniffed the baby and then hugged/sniffed Amy and said something like (to the baby), 'Yes, she belongs to you'. But the baby was a ganger (or avatar, as this week's episode called them). So is Amy still not real Amy? My head is spinning.
And we still don't know who Eye Patch Lady is (OK, we know her name, Kovarian or something), but not why she/the Church has a never ending war with the Doctor. Are we before or after the Doctor and the Church co-operated at the wreck of the Byzantium?
I loved the Sontaran nurse, too, and both Macarius and I thought that Dorium was very Sidney Greenstreet, as mentioned above! I liked it, although I'd come across River's identity on the internet a couple of weeks ago, which was a bit disappointing.
One thing that is beginning to irritate (as well as intrigue), is that every answer just opens more questions. Nothing is ever complete - the 'arc' is becoming more important than each episode, and I think it would be good to have an ending at some stage. In 'Confidential', Stephen Moffatt as good as said that it won't end, though.
And I saw the trailer for the next one too!
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
PS, Is it just me or do other people read the thread title to themselves in a funny hissy voice?
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
As soon as I heard the Thin Fat etc line I said "Ship sig!"
But they are Not Fools, so perhaps not.
They were channelling Nick Pegg/Steve Frost though!
So... is Amy now thinking "Eww, I nearly made out with my son-in-law!"
-------------------- *sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
I think I need a badge: 'I'm an Anglican Cleric - I'm armed and dangerous'. I also need to learn the Headless Monks' attack prayer for use at certain times...
Moffat was tweeting on Saturday that he thought the 'evil church' was a dramatic staple rather than a real-life situation - after Paul Cornell ('Father's Day', series 1) complained about the use of the church as the baddies. So he may not be as anti-church as it seems.
And I thought the gay Anglicans and the lesbian Victorian Silurian/human couple were pure RTD - almost as if he had never left - but the return of the 'carnival of monsters' approach to the series 'finale' was a less welcome reminder of the Davies days. What had the blue trader (last seen trying to sell River a Time Bracelet 'straight off the wrist of a Time Agent') ever done with the Doctor that meant he owed him a debt? Why did the Doctor take a month to arrive at Demon's Run - and a month from when? And did the Cybermen have a Cybus Corporation C on their breastplates or not (cousin and I are arguing over this)?
PS Guessed (amongst other theories) the River Song solution when the pregnancy was announced and denied. Became certain at the beginning of this episode when the name was given.
-------------------- "Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Penny S: I think Moffat falls far short of Pullman's take on organised church - which is seriously thought out - but I suspect has something more behind it than Dan Brown, who I think is merely silly.
I suspect, from watching Moffat in his interview, that he is one of those who has fallen foul of some representative of one or another of the churches, a representative who has himself (probably male) fallen short of what we would hope such a person to be. Having known something of the sort in my family, and in a friend's life, I know how this sort of thing can rankle (and that's an understatement). He seemed to take the activities of churches more personally than simply extrapolating from the historical activities of Inquisitors and Witch Finders General, modified by observations of the excesses of the Westboro Baptists.
Which is not an excuse.
He doesn't need an excuse. Nor does he need your approval. What he has written, he has written. But I do find it amusing that having already watched mind-controlling aliens you can't remember, crazed medical software, a TARDIS-eating monster living outside the universe and acid-mining clones just in this series, people can take this particular concept so seriously and personally.
I found it quite enjoyable at the time, thanks to some sharp dialogue (which has done a lot for flimsy stories this series), but it left me feeling empty. There was just too much that didn't make sense, and the tricks and surprises weren't enough to distract from that. The Doctor was apparently so furious that he was prepared to suddenly start blowing things up for no reason other than to get the Cybermen's attention, but his cunning plan was dancing on a knife edge, and would only have worked with a cool head. Then at the end of the episode, with everything lying in tatters and the baby still missing, he just starts giggling and runs off to do something else entirely? No. Just no.
The "trap" was also rather pointless. They seemed quite happy for the Doctor et al to pop up because of this trap, but it didn't ever seriously threaten any of the main characters (the Doctor wasn't even there), and seeing that the baby was never really there, it only seemed to exist to get rid of the extras who were dragged in to make this feel a bit more epic. Did the Headless Monks (the best bit IMO) conveniently get killed off at exactly the same time as the Extras, or did they just wander off having done their job of depleting the cast back to normal, manageable levels?
The best reason I can think of for the "trap" is from a script perspective - it provided a distraction to ensure that the viewer didn't think too much about Amy's baby, so that the Flesh Baby revelation was an effective shock. The other surprise about the baby, though, was less effective. The River-Pond similarity was obvious waaaaay back, and River as Amy's baby was a clear possibility based on existing knowledge, albeit at the level of "I wouldn't be surprised if..." rather than "I'm sure that..." The lack of surprise isn't the end of the world, but it does make it harder to ignore the weak points in the plot, and causes further problems of motivation and consistency.
There must now be very short odds that the Astronaut is River as a girl. In which case, why did she give no indication in ep1 of recognising the time and place? And why, seeing that she must have known what was going to happen and was willing to shoot at her younger self, didn't she try to do so before the Doctor was shot? The only possible answer I can come up with is that the Doctor had to be shot for some reason, but she didn't want to live with having done it, so why not just shoot her current self? There may be explanations forthcoming and even some concealed twists, but my hopes aren't high on this evidence.
Worst of all, they've made River into some sort of ersatz Time Lord/Lady thing, so when Alex Kingston gets too old to play the ever-younger River, or just wants to move on, they'll have a way of recasting her to keep the character going in an earlier regeneration. I get the horrible feeling we're stuck with her for good.
-------------------- The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I suppose that when the Dr spoke to the baby, he was speaking to the original, as he had spoken to the original Amy through her avatar. And perhaps Madam Kovarian had done some trick like a shepherd wiping the abandoned lamb with the birth fluids of the dead one, so the ewe adopts it and feeds it. It might be easier to hide a flesh baby - and he didn't have long to work on it, whereas he hid some time to work out what was happening with Amy.
River Song has grown up quite well given that she has been deprived of loving contact in a crucial stage of her development. I remember the work done with monkeys and wire milk stations or soft toy milk stations, rather than actual mothers. And given that the intent of the bringers up is to produce a weapon, bringing her up without love would be a prime factor, I would imagine. But maybe Moffat isn't as up on nurture as on gender bending. Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
My first instinct on seeing this week's episode was to dislike it strongly. This is because - (a) I don't like the "The Doctor's this big bad universally famous legend thingy, ooh let's be automatically scared of him" theme. (b) I didn't like the gathering-an-army theme. Pointless. (c) I don't like the Nu-Silurians. Not even lesbian ones.
But then I thought, hang on - was this episode actually good at doing what it set out to do? And the answer, I thought, was yes - it was very good indeed. It ticked all the boxes. It was big, loud, spectacular. It gave a large nod to Star Wars (and a little one to Thunderbirds). It had some very funny lines, and, I thought, a genuinely scary performance from Matt Smith, in the "Colonel Run Away" scene. The "reveal" was clever and, as Moffat pointed out in Confidential, did what a reveal should do, which is to create more questions than it answered.
The question I was left with, however - and I have never said this since the show returned - is, was it Doctor Who? How did this episode fit with the man who slips in and out of time and space at random? Who often doesn't know where he is, or where he's going? Whom nobody knows because he says, "Don't mention it", or "I hate goodbyes", or simply slips quietly away when no-one is looking? How did he become a galactic megastar who can turn armies around just by saying, "Basically - run"? And, more to the point, why?
People didn't tell stories and write songs about the old Doctor. The universe is a big place, in which it's a big thing to make a name for yourself, and so his interventions were lost to history. I can imagine his name being written out of the official investigation of the Sandminer in Robots of Death; forgotten in the efforts of recolonising Earth after The Ark in Space; a mere footnote in the private history of the royal family of Peladon. How did we get from there to where we are today? I don't know, and I'm increasingly unsure that I like it.
-------------------- "What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gill H: So... is Amy now thinking "Eww, I nearly made out with my son-in-law!"
I presume that neither Amy nor the Doctor ever told the Doctor about that. Expect mother-in-law jokes throughout the next bit of the series.
I thought it was a fun episode taken on its own terms.
Still, coming at it from a nitpicking continuity point of view: If Dorian is killed here, then when River escapes at the Pandorica it must be prior to this episode in her personal timeline. She didn't recognise centurion Rory back in The Pandorica Opens. On the other hand, she didn't recognise Rory this time either. The whole randomly intersecting timelines, or even backwards timelines, is a fun idea, but Moffat does need to get it straight in his own head when River first meets companions from her point of view. Also, River in the past has been much more emotionally focussed on the Doctor than on Amy and Rory. You'd think she'd have considered Amy and Rory as emotionally significant. 'This is the day the Doctor finds out who I am' - surely with her dad right in front of her she'd be thinking of him finding out who she is as well?
-------------------- we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Gumby, you've got good points (aside - haven't read Moffat's tweets, but on Confidential, he seemed more anti-church than that, but then I'm not bothered by Pullman, and there are situations where anti-church is not only understandable but a proper reaction), especially about plot holes.
The identity of River Song (I suppose she ought to be called Song, first) had to be, since if the two mysterious identities were not the same, it would mean introducing a new character. Moffat stated in Confidential that a complex question deserved a complex answer, but he does like referring back and bringing characters back, so the complexity of someone we have never met would seem unlikely.
I think the trap had two parts, the first being the possibility that he could be dealt with on Demon's Run, the second the back up, develop the baby to be his doom.
But I feel a bit like Cassidy and Sundance - who are these guys? Why are they set on his destruction? In the Pandorica, the enemies were the obvious enemies. These are people we have never met. If it is his part in the mysterious Time Wars, why not let us know? Why do they have him as a dark legend? What has he been up to that even River warns him about it? And where are the Time Agents? And how can there be a place which is Heaven-neutral to an evangelising church?
We've seen a lot of futures, and they don't fit together. Not that I can be bothered to check it all out. And the person I watch with can't be bothered to watch Who again at all. He wants proper narrative.
Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I'm with Adeodatus - as well as disliking the whole story arc thing (uber-clever though undoubtedly it is), I'm finding myself disliking the character the Doctor is becoming: he's paradoxically being portrayed as more Superhero and more human (less alien, less weird, less other) simultaneously, neither of which I like. It's a bit like the new (Daniel Craig) Bond films versus the 'classic' (Connery/ Moore) films.
-------------------- "Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Just spotted another hole, I think. Madame K went to get on her ship, but found it occupied by the pirates. How did she get off with the real baby, then?
Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gill H:
So... is Amy now thinking "Eww, I nearly made out with my son-in-law!"
She's probably more Eww over having fed her.
Sorry.
-------------------- C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~ Philip Purser Hallard http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
Posts: 1625 | From: Derbyshire - England | Registered: May 2001
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Adeodatus: The question I was left with, however - and I have never said this since the show returned - is, was it Doctor Who? How did this episode fit with the man who slips in and out of time and space at random? Who often doesn't know where he is, or where he's going? Whom nobody knows because he says, "Don't mention it", or "I hate goodbyes", or simply slips quietly away when no-one is looking? How did he become a galactic megastar who can turn armies around just by saying, "Basically - run"? And, more to the point, why?
People didn't tell stories and write songs about the old Doctor. The universe is a big place, in which it's a big thing to make a name for yourself, and so his interventions were lost to history. I can imagine his name being written out of the official investigation of the Sandminer in Robots of Death; forgotten in the efforts of recolonising Earth after The Ark in Space; a mere footnote in the private history of the royal family of Peladon. How did we get from there to where we are today? I don't know, and I'm increasingly unsure that I like it.
Agreed.
-------------------- "We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Penny S: Just spotted another hole, I think. Madame K went to get on her ship, but found it occupied by the pirates. How did she get off with the real baby, then?
I'm guessing the baby went long before. Even when Madame K was stopped by Rory, she might not have been the real one. They knew the Doctor was coming and would have to be pretty careless to allow any possibility of losing the baby they went to so much trouble to get. That was one thing that seemed to make sense.
I'm going to have to watch this again myself, but I was so unimpressed, I haven't felt at all inclined to do so yet. Moffat's got some serious work to do in order to tie everything up, and the Cult of Song isn't going to help. The series so far is long on action and snappy dialogue, but short on detailed, coherent plot, and with all the arrows pointing in one direction, he needs to produce a genuine surprise which doesn't feel totally forced. Amy having twins, or River killing Rory, or anyone else but River in the spacesuit would work if done well (although I realise I've just nobbled the "surprise" element by suggesting them), but anything involving more Flesh is out.
Before this aired, I nearly posted about Moffat saying that the Daleks were being "rested". If he's got the clout to do that with the BBC's most marketable (and overexposed) baddies, I thought, what was going on with that abysmal episode last series, which seemed to have no purpose except to create some redesigned models to flog to impressionable kids? And then this week, he dragged the bloody Spitfires in Space into it again - the very worst bit of a total clanger of an episode. I know it was just a cameo, but the only proper place for them is encased in lead in a locked filing cabinet at the bottom of the sea, where no one will be exposed to their craptastic naffness.
Moffat's written some brilliant stuff, including just about all the best stand-alone stories of New Who, and he's earned the right to be judged on the series as a whole, but I'm feeling a lot less confident that he really knows what he's doing.
-------------------- The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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The Revolutionist
Shipmate
# 4578
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Adeodatus: The question I was left with, however - and I have never said this since the show returned - is, was it Doctor Who? How did this episode fit with the man who slips in and out of time and space at random? Who often doesn't know where he is, or where he's going? Whom nobody knows because he says, "Don't mention it", or "I hate goodbyes", or simply slips quietly away when no-one is looking? How did he become a galactic megastar who can turn armies around just by saying, "Basically - run"? And, more to the point, why?
I also dislike the Celebritification of the Doctor, making him into some universally-recognised figure.
But one of the things that I liked about this story is that it calls that into question, and shows the Doctor getting into problems because of it - River Song in particular takes him to task for it at the end.
We also now know that she was created as a weapon against the Doctor. I reckon he might have a big wake-up call in the offing.
Posts: 1296 | From: London | Registered: May 2003
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
It was the how Madam K left part, rather than the baby, that was exercising me. After all, she's kidnapped someone earlier than expected before. I do think it's a bit of a cheat to have had Amy taken before the series started, though.
Penny
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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