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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: US election aftermath
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Maybe you didn't notice the last 8 years.
Here is that I said Sure, the Republicans started this intransigence game first
Scorched earth is a game the Trump camp can play and win at. I'm not as confident that the Democrats can.
Here's the thing. The Democrats want to block Trump's initiatives because they are bad for our country, bad for our citizens, bad for the world. The Republicans wanted to block Obama's initiatives because he's black. See the difference?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Maybe you didn't notice the last 8 years.
Here is that I said Sure, the Republicans started this intransigence game first
Scorched earth is a game the Trump camp can play and win at. I'm not as confident that the Democrats can.
You said:
quote:
My point is if the initial starting position is complete resistance and total commitment to the defeat of the incoming administration, you should ready yourself for that in 4 years if the Democrats were to regain the Presidency.
If the Republicans start stonewalling all on their own, it's silly to threaten Republican intransigence as payback for Democratic obstruction. If it's to be expected no matter what, it shouldn't weigh in the Democrats' strategic calculations.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Re the inaguration numbers, my mind cannot comprehend the administration's response. Less numbers -- let it go and it may die a death as news rolls on; claim record numbers when photographic evidence [guess it's doctored! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ] shows that to be false -- give a minor story more air and make yourself out to be incompetent spinners of lies.
I thought our lot were bad with weasel words and half-truths; my mind spins at how much lower it can actually get. I thought he may be a bad President; never did I think I'd see this, but I suppose I should not be surprised. Truth according to Trump (TM).
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
If it's to be expected no matter what, it shouldn't weigh in the Democrats' strategic calculations.
If there is no importance attached to maintaining the high ground, and if it was a strategy that actually might work, then certainly not.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
If it's to be expected no matter what, it shouldn't weigh in the Democrats' strategic calculations.
If there is no importance attached to maintaining the high ground, and if it was a strategy that actually might work, then certainly not.
Your previous argument was that Republican obstruction would be payback for Democratic attitudes:
quote:
My point is if the initial starting position is complete resistance and total commitment to the defeat of the incoming administration, you should ready yourself for that in 4 years if the Democrats were to regain the Presidency.
Are you now abandoning this ludicrous suggestion, or merely ignoring it?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I went to the March in Washington yesterday, and here is a quick blog report on it. With pictures! The embedded links take you to the Washington
Post coverage of the event.
A friend of mine who marched in the '60s assures me that the quality of the signage now is far better. Wittier signs, some of great literacy (I particularly admired the "Send in the Clowns ... Don't Bother, They're Here" neatly credited to Mr. Sondheim.)
I am in the photo wearing a neon yellow rain jacket, which I didn't need -- no rain, and it wasn't even particularly cold.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Your previous argument was that Republican obstruction would be payback for Democratic attitudes
Let me try and clarify then, because I am not intentionally attempting to be read as saying two things.
The Republicans took an extremely obstructionist approach throughout the last 8 years. It's not black and white, but I think by and large the Democrats could credibly claim they were the adults in the room in terms of their willingness to actually govern.
If the Democrats adopt the obstructionist approach now, I think they lose the credibility that comes with willingness to compromise and govern. Perhaps the policy choices of the Trump administration will force them in to this. The obstructionist approach I think increases the chance that there will be a Republican response in kind if power is shifted back. I don't view that as payback, but expected outcome. You could of course reasonably say this would happen no matter what so it shouldn't factor in the strategy of the Democrats. I am not convinced it is a strategy that will work, because I think the Trump camp will find strength in increased partisan polarization. It's probably where we are headed though.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well done, Brenda et al - but as far as The Orange Lord Of The World is concerned, it didn't happen...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
What are "alternative facts", if they aren't deliberate lies? Is it as exhausting to be evil as it is to hear about it and see it?
I was thinking of the mix of tragedy and comedy - not enough comedy - and wondering about parallels in history, which led me to Marx's essay about Louis Napoleon's coup in 1851. How grotesque mediocrity can play the hero.
Maybe time to watch Les Miserables again? and consider that the arts are often the source of dissent. And hope that the revolution against Louis Nappy doesn't fail this time in this rhyme of that miserable history. Or start taking LSD.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I think the Trump camp will find strength in increased partisan polarization. It's probably where we are headed though.
I think it's just about maxed out now. But I surely don't see how Democrats standing on principles when Republicans try to, say, destroy Medicare, constitutes an increase in partisan polarization.
If Republicans are going to try to roll back programs that have long been Democratic sine qua nons, then they are going to have to expect pushback. Expecting the Democrats to lay down and die to avoid increasing "partisan polarization" is the height of Doublespeak.
[ 22. January 2017, 20:52: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
What are "alternative facts", if they aren't deliberate lies?
They might just be cries for help from within the bubble of narcissism that keeps Trump's psyche intact.
Seriously, time and again the man demonstrates that he is just completely unable to cope if he's not the centre of an adoring universe. Whether it's the lather he gets into over comedians, or refusing to accept the possibility of an electoral loss, or the need to have had the biggest inauguration in history, or the reports that he spent over half of his speech at the CIA talking about himself.
The Presidency is the ultimate attempt at validation by a man who is desperate for the world to stroke his ego. He's the exact opposite of the famous "ask not what your country can do for you".
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Keith Olbermann has been getting angrier and angrier in recent days/weeks to the extent that watching his daily videos makes one think he might be causing himself an injury.
Anyway, a friend of mine objected to the way that KO keeps referring to Trump in derogatory terms suggesting he (Trump) is mentally unstable. My friend says there are plenty of people who are actually mentally ill but have not tipped into Trump-like behaviour and it is unfair to use real illnesses to describe Trump's narcissm.
But I have to wonder whether Trump really is ill. Maybe he isn't trying to trick anyone, but maybe he really is mentally ill. Maybe something has malfunctioned so that he really believes - as he appears to regularly indicate - that he prefers to believe the truth is a reality inside his head rather than the one shown by objective reality.
I do think that at times KO is using the whole mental illness thing as a stick to beat Trump, and I'm not sure we can know if he is ill. But then.. well, it might explain a lot of things.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I would not say mentally ill. One can be perfectly healthy mentally and still have a dreadful personality and be a terrible person.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Re the inaguration numbers, my mind cannot comprehend the administration's response. Less numbers -- let it go and it may die a death as news rolls on; claim record numbers when photographic evidence [guess it's doctored! ] shows that to be false -- give a minor story more air and make yourself out to be incompetent spinners of lies.
It's dead cat politics, whether or not it's on purpose.
Dead cat politics is when you're about to do something important and controversial - or your opponent is directing the course of the political debate - so you say something controversial and comparatively unimportant.
It was a deliberate tactic by the Conservatives in the last UK election. And by accident or design the Grump seems set to do it too.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Yes. What's really depressing is that so much of the media, so much of which is claiming to be there to hold Trump to account, goes after the dead cat with a vengeance every single time.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re Trump's view of the world:
IMHO: His father taught all the kids that only winners deserve to be loved. So everything he thinks, says, does absolutely must be the best and the biggest. Even if it isn't. Otherwise, he's failed.
I've been wondering if he sort of wanders around in a dream state, and is maybe dimly aware of that. So he doesn't always manage to make things happen; and, when he does, the consequences don't matter.
If being president doesn't fulfill his need for love, attention, and winning, what will he do then?
I have seen one sign that he's capable of a normal relationship. When the entire family was interviewed on TV by "60 Minutes", there was a segment where T and Melania were interviewed together. M was asked if she ever tried to tell him he was wrong, etc. She said something like, "yes, but it's up to him to listen". T was asked if he listened, and there was this moment where they were like (IMHO) normal/average couples. He indicated "yes, she tells me stuff", and looked over at her. They looked at each other, and IMHO it was the classic "you frustrate me, and I still love you, and ok, I'll put the garbage out" exchange. There was real affection between them. So there's some bit of him that's that healthy.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Kellyanne Conway's "alternative facts" comment is in Wikipedia already! Citations and everything.
Actually, I kind of like the term. Not because I don't think AFs are falsehoods, but because they capture the postmodern political discourse we are currently experiencing in the West. It reaches beyond the simple notion of there being more than one way of looking at something. It points to the whole psychological process of starting with a foreclosed opinion and working back through evidence in a consequential way until you have the factual outcome you need. If this includes a recalibration of interpretative tools, so be it.
They teach it at many American schools, for instance in biology.
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... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Your previous argument was that Republican obstruction would be payback for Democratic attitudes
Let me try and clarify then, because I am not intentionally attempting to be read as saying two things.
The Republicans took an extremely obstructionist approach throughout the last 8 years. It's not black and white, but I think by and large the Democrats could credibly claim they were the adults in the room in terms of their willingness to actually govern.
If the Democrats adopt the obstructionist approach now, I think they lose the credibility that comes with willingness to compromise and govern. Perhaps the policy choices of the Trump administration will force them in to this. The obstructionist approach I think increases the chance that there will be a Republican response in kind if power is shifted back. I don't view that as payback, but expected outcome. You could of course reasonably say this would happen no matter what so it shouldn't factor in the strategy of the Democrats. I am not convinced it is a strategy that will work, because I think the Trump camp will find strength in increased partisan polarization. It's probably where we are headed though.
I didn't suggest any particular strategy for the Democrats, only that fear of payback is foolish given the Republicans' demonstrated propensity to obstruct no matter what. Obstruction may be less successful as an opposition stance for Democrats than it has been for Republicans, but trying to block bad policies is the higher moral ground; it would be foolish to adopt a policy of kissing Trump's ass in the vain hope that in four years' time the Republicans might just stop acting like Republicans.
That's the problem with the Republican situation now (well, one of them, anyway); they can't credibly offer to act reasonably any more. If they could, Obama would have gotten at least a couple of Republican votes for a health care plan that was practically the same goddamn plan that their own 2012 nominee implemented in Massachusetts.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think that's called "plausible deniability".
Ah, that's so 2016. Today we learned that its "alternative facts"
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I would not say mentally ill. One can be perfectly healthy mentally and still have a dreadful personality and be a terrible person.
But the specific ways in which he is dreadful and terrible bespeak two known mental illnesses: Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and Sociopathy. That's not to say we amateurs can diagnose him. But if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, and flaps like a duck, there's no point in saying "not every water fowl is a duck." Maybe not. But this one sure seems it.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I would not say mentally ill. One can be perfectly healthy mentally and still have a dreadful personality and be a terrible person.
But the specific ways in which he is dreadful and terrible bespeak two known mental illnesses: Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and Sociopathy. That's not to say we amateurs can diagnose him. But if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, and flaps like a duck, there's no point in saying "not every water fowl is a duck." Maybe not. But this one sure seems it.
That would describe more than a few US Presidents, though.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Your point?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I would not say mentally ill. One can be perfectly healthy mentally and still have a dreadful personality and be a terrible person.
But the specific ways in which he is dreadful and terrible bespeak two known mental illnesses: Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and Sociopathy. That's not to say we amateurs can diagnose him. But if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, and flaps like a duck, there's no point in saying "not every water fowl is a duck." Maybe not. But this one sure seems it.
That would describe more than a few US Presidents, though.
Honestly, that's not the case.
Most anyone who rises to such high levels of power is going to have a fairly strong ego, some more than others, but that's not the same thing as narcissistic personality disorder. And pretty much anyone who is successful in the job of president is going to be someone who is pragmatic enough to do a great deal of horse-trading and compromise, even of cherished principles, some more than others and some more self-serving about it, but that's not the same thing as sociopathy. Both narcissistic personality disorder and sociopathy are clinical terms with specific diagnostic criteria. As mousethief says, none of us is qualified to make that diagnosis, and most professionals in the field are cagey about making a long-distance diagnosis. Yet more than one mental health professional has been willing to tick off the ways that Trump seems to embody those clear and specific diagnostic criteria.
As has been said before: No: this is Not. Normal.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I ended up hearing half of the inaugural address because I was stuck in commute traffic behind a stalled truck. I turned it off halfway through. It's bad enough that he trashes the previous presidents as insiders but he seems unaware of the previous life of the slogan "America First" before WWII as the slogan of the pro-Nazis in the United States.
About the only slight ray of hope is that some of his cabinet nominees have backed off from his statements. The one responsible for Science research says he's changed his mind about climate change.
A few Republican Senators seemed hesitant about shutting down ACA healthcare without a follow up plan. However they seemed to have caved to party discipline and we're now heading to a position where a new plan will emerge that no insurance company will want to support.
I'm hoping the Blue states will be able to support state level funded health care, perhaps as a multi state coalition like California, Oregon Washington that's large enough to cope with free-riders from red states with no coverage. I am looking forward to seeing how Trump voters who lose insurance and don't get jobs will feel in a few years. Probably they'll still be blaming Obama.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I am looking forward to seeing how Trump voters who lose insurance and don't get jobs will feel in a few years. Probably they'll still be blaming Obama.
Why not? They blame him for 9/11 and for the Recession.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I'm hoping the Blue states will be able to support state level funded health care, perhaps as a multi state coalition like California, Oregon Washington that's large enough to cope with free-riders from red states with no coverage.
Was reform of the ACA on Hillary's agenda? I ask as I heard a BBC report recently that had people saying their premiums doubled, in one case getting up to near $1,000/month. I could not afford that. I agree something needed to be done for the uninsured, but the model that got through seems to me to need some work (it seems to me sitting happily across the Pacific with free hospitals).
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Oh reform of ACA was on Hilary's agenda. No one didn't think that the ACA didn't need adjustment. The Democrats claimed that the premiums were stabilizing after the first year. There's no questions that the insurance is not cheap. I was on it for 4 months and to get an approximation of my former employer insurance with my existing doctors, I was paying $900 a month for insurance with copay and a $5000 deductible on prescriptions.
It's important to note that the American Health Insurance prices are high, but you have to compare it will more national health insurance schemes which have much higher taxes. As a friend said, when he moved from Britain to the US his income taxes went down by 20% of his income but he had to pay that in medical insurance. There are lots of individual exceptions.
However without ACA or an equivalent, one is screwed if one is not in a job with Health insurance. ACA prevented that to a certain amount. What is coming with Trump is vague but doesn't look good.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
Like others have observed above, the TFO's anger against the press/the media is simply astounding. Now even Reuters reports on it, headline quote:
White House vows to fight media 'tooth and nail' over Trump coverage
From the article: quote:
On his first full day as president, Trump said he had a "running war" with the media [...]. "The point is not the crowd size. The point is the attacks and the attempt to delegitimize this president in one day. And we're not going to sit around and take it," Chief of Staff Reince Priebus said on "Fox News Sunday."
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Haven't they got other things to do?! This is nothing short of embarrassing! A smokescreen for inaction or wrong action, or simple incompetence in other areas? This is the sort of thing you tend to hear from dicatorships. - What on earth!?! ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
[ 23. January 2017, 06:28: Message edited by: Wesley J ]
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Thanks Palimpsest; I appreciate the detailed and helpful reply. Makes sense. And I hadn't thought about the less taxes...
Throwing it out without a firm replacement in place seems foolhardy in the extreme...especially for those millions who did not have some form of health insurance who did not before. I can't imagine what is going through their minds.
---
And thanks Dafyd for the "dead cat" politics information. My mind still boggles.
[ 23. January 2017, 06:31: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Wes--
We're all supposed to live in Trump's reality, such as it is.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
[ 23. January 2017, 06:34: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Wesley J: TFO?
[ 23. January 2017, 06:35: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
TFO = Tiny Fingered One, aka Trump.
This seems like a great opportunity for me to air a long-held grievance, which is that it would really improve the tone of the debate, and the impact of the arguments, if we could start referring to adversaries by their real names instead of demeaning sobriquets.
Doing so suggests you have nothing better than insults to attack with, which is surely not the case with Trump.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
I think Trump is a bad man. He lies, he abuses, he bullies, he cheats.
The argument about mental illness; I think mousethief has it about right. I suppose one might argue that the personality disorders are the underlying causes of his badness. Something he got in his genes, something he picked up through a dysfunctional upbringing. Or they are the result of his bad behaviour creating and reinforcing these disorders. Nature, nurture, the morality of choices, they are all in play for all of us.
Don't think it matters. He's demonstrably a bad man and I suspect there will be more evidence of this. A bad man can do a lot of damage in any position of power. As we will find out.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This seems like a great opportunity for me to air a long-held grievance, which is that it would really improve the tone of the debate, and the impact of the arguments, if we could start referring to adversaries by their real names instead of demeaning sobriquets.
Newsflash: there is no debate. One side is making up shit and calling it fact.
We are way way beyond the point of trying to argue logically why this nonsense is wrong and we're deep into territory which is terrifyingly near fascism.
To take one example: Trump appears to be pushing forward with moving the US embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
It is impossible to imagine that there are not a large number of US diplomats telling him this is a very bad idea. Either he has fired them all or has decided that he isn't going to listen - either way, this bodes terribly for the chances of a just settlement in Israel-Palestine.
There a few tools left when we find ourselves out in the weeds like this. One of the few things is to point and laugh, point and laugh at the silly orange-faced buffoon.
The one thing we know for a fact is that Trump doesn't like ridicule.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The one thing we know for a fact is that Trump doesn't like ridicule.
Oh yeah, and he's really going to be irked by how we talk about him on SoF.
If the only response to the serious dangers we broadly agree on is to resort to name-calling, I think there's a problem.
Ridicule suggests he is stupid or incompetent. I don't think he's either, and cultivating such ideas is a great way of understimating him.
Plus ridiculing him is, by association, ridiculing his supporters. This feeds precisely the kind of division Trump and his policies thrive on.
The prophetic challenge of the hour is to overcome that kind of barrier, not help reinforce it.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
A comment on the Guardian nails it -
"And while we discuss how odious Trump is to even suggest this obvious lie ... he is busy selling ambassadorships through Trump Company. That is the beauty of a true con-artist, like a stage magician, he points to where he wants you to look, while the real action is elsewhere.
It will be like that day in, day out, and the media will follow. And we with them, always focussing on the decoy, and thinking him an idiot.
He is laughing all the way to the bank."
Indeed.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Oh yeah, and he's really going to be irked by how we talk about him on SoF.
If the only response to the serious dangers we broadly agree on is to resort to name-calling, I think there's a problem.
I don't. One of the big reasons that fascism never took a hold in 1930s Britain was ridicule. It's a powerful force.
quote:
Ridicule suggests he is stupid or incompetent. I don't think he's either, and cultivating such ideas is a great way of understimating him.
I don't think Chaplin's Great Dictator underestimated Hitler. If anything it just showed up his pomposity and ridiculousness.
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Plus ridiculing him is, by association, ridiculing his supporters. This feeds precisely the kind of division Trump and his policies thrive on.
Don't care. If there is a division between Trumpism and The Truth, then I've no problem calling it.
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The prophetic challenge of the hour is to overcome that kind of barrier, not help reinforce it.
I don't believe that shit. Now is not the time to be talking about a negotiated settlement with evil, now is the time to resist it.
Even in the smallest of ways.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Now is not the time to be talking about a negotiated settlement with evil, now is the time to resist it.
So you think Trump supporters are evil?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't think Chaplin's Great Dictator underestimated Hitler. If anything it just showed up his pomposity and ridiculousness.
I don't think fascism was defeated merely by satire and lampooning. It was also defeated by tangible arugments (not to mention armed resistance). I've nothing against the former. It's the combination of the two I find depressing.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
So you think Trump supporters are evil?
I think they've been infected with an evil idea which is hard to impossible to shift with rational argument. Similar to fascism, naziism and the theology of the KKK.
But then I also believe that there are only a small number of people who are hardcore believers in Trumpism anyway, and that ridicule is more likely to win over those who sold their vote for a plate of imaginary beans.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
How many times have you been won over to an argument because your opponent ridiculed you?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I don't think fascism was defeated merely by satire and lampooning. It was also defeated by tangible arugments (not to mention armed resistance). I've nothing against the former. It's the combination of the two I find depressing.
I didn't say anything about "merely". I absolutely believe that resistence is necessary to fight fascism, I have never said anything otherwise.
What absolutely doesn't work is trying to be reasonable with those who have lost all sense of reasonableness.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The scope here is "serious debate".
The vast majority of us are against Trump.
There are recurring concerns about the Ship turning into an echo chamber.
There's nothing wrong with the occasional colourful insult in the course of debate, but making a systematic practice out of it, as some do, is not likely to attract a range of opinions. It just hastens the descent to a slanging match.
Slanging matches are fuel to the fire of Trump's diversionary tactics whereby the real, complicated policy issues go largely undiscussed.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
If you don't like the quality of the debate, use the door to the left of your screen. Logout and don't log back in.
Meantime, I'll do what I like within the rules of this discussion, thanks all the same.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
My initial criticism in respect of consistent use of insults to describe opponents wasn't even directed at you
[ 23. January 2017, 08:34: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I see, so you engage in a long chain of replies, say that something I believe in is destructive of discussion generally (and on this forum in particular) and then say it wasn't directed at me anyway.
Why does it matter who it was "directed at", you made a statement and I'm discussing it.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I commented; you replied.
You haven't convinced me that ridicule contributes to constructive debate.
Instead you invited me to stop reading. Seems like a great way to broaden the debate
I haven't told you to stop posting in a particular fashion. You can do what you like within the rules.
But for what it's worth, as far as I'm concerned, the constant use of demeaning acronyms and the like to refer to the person one disagrees with weakens the arguments brought to bear in "serious debate", and the discussion amongst ourselves about the Trump presidency would be a lot better off without them, in much the same way as the election thread would have been better off without "Illary" and the like.
That is all.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
That's incredibly fair. But I often use these boards as practice to refine my own arguments to take into RL.
Out there, we have actual fascists killing elected officials, Nazis shouting "Hail Trump", and the White House Press Secretary becoming indistinguishable from the former Iraqi Information Minister.
Reason only works on people amenable to reason. And the further Right (or Left) you go, the more pointless it becomes.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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