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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: US election aftermath
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
It seems to be asserted that Trump is a narcissist who craves attention and worship. He indeed displays some of the characteristics of some of the most extremely dysfunctional Roman emperors. If he does not get the attention he craves, he will generate it by doing something sufficiently outrageous, even if just for the helluvit, without any thought to its consequences. Moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem would fit the bill perfectly.
Or it could have been that, having delcared himself "very neutral" on the ststus of Jerusalem(which was probably the most pro-Palestinian statement ever made by someone who eventually became president, though that's not saying much), he was promptly informed that he had ticked off an influential lobby group, and made amends by reversing himself over to the most extrmeme poistion on the other end.
As another poster and I were discussing some time back, the former Canadian PM Joe Clark also promised to move his country's embassy to Jerusalem back in the late 70s. Like most everything else about his premiership, that did not end well.
[ 24. January 2017, 02:27: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Trump has named his inauguration day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion."
Stalin would be proud.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
mt--
He chose that day? I heard him say, during the inauguration (IIRC), that there'd be a patriotic day, but nothing about it being *that* day. Even for him, that's pretty darn brazen.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Interesting idea:
"The Cherokee Nation Is Entitled to a Delegate in Congress. But Will They Finally Send One? To deal with a Trump administration, the tribal nation might now want to use that 200-year-old treaty right." (Yes magazine)
Per the article: If this were implemented, the delegate might be a Republican--a good many Cherokees are. But the delegate would be there in Congress, on site, and able to advocate for Native American issues. And the person would likely not be pro-Trump. The Choctaw nation has a similar right, but a bit different.
BTW, Yes magazine specializes in positive and creative ways to handle situations. It also has a good many articles on Trump, the marches, etc.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Trump has named his inauguration day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion."
Stalin would be proud.
So his inauguration is somehow different and more special than all the inaugurations of his predecessors? Is that seriously what he's saying?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I heard on the BBC R4 'Today' programme that DT has been going on about how he really won the popular vote, which was distorted by illegals voting again. Or still.
Can't be a loser, can he?
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Ok. I found verification at The Daily Beast. He really did choose Jan. 20th. The "proclamation" will be published tomorrow (Tuesday). But a journalist spotted it today, in the Federal Register. At the end of the Daily Beast article, there's a link to the Fed Reg.
Will we be expected to burn incense to Caesar next?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Trump has named his inauguration day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion."
Stalin would be proud.
So his inauguration is somehow different and more special than all the inaugurations of his predecessors? Is that seriously what he's saying?
Of course. I'm sure he'd tell you himself that he is the most patriotic and devoted American ever.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re "day of patriotic devotion" declaration:
Turns out you can't read it directly on the Federal Register site, until it's published on Tuesday.
But you can read/download it now, as this PDF. I skimmed it. From what I can see, it doesn't say that it will be every year--but that's probably the intent.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Per the article: If this were implemented, the delegate might be a Republican--a good many Cherokees are. But the delegate would be there in Congress, on site, and able to advocate for Native American issues. And the person would likely not be pro-Trump. The Choctaw nation has a similar right, but a bit different.
Even if this happened, it might have a limited effect because (as I understand it) the delegate would be non-voting like those for DC and IIRC PR.
It'd be quite an impressive thing to do, but I doubt it would stop the oil pipeline in and of itself.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Trump has named his inauguration day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion."
Stalin would be proud.
I don't think Stalin would have had the Christian language. Which makes it a whole lot scarier.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
As another poster and I were discussing some time back, the former Canadian PM Joe Clark also promised to move his country's embassy to Jerusalem back in the late 70s. Like most everything else about his premiership, that did not end well.
In case this needs reiterating, several countries have Consulate-General in Jerusalem including the USA and the UK. I don't know about the USA's, but the British C-G is in East Jerusalem and was there from before the 1967 war which annexed East Jersualem. It operates as a consular and diplomatic base between the UK and the Palestinian Authority (and, actually, anyone else who happens to be in East Jerusalem).
To move the Embassy to Israel is to tacitly support the Israeli narrative that they have united Jersualem and have authority over the whole city - which is currently considered occupied land. Doing that means that any idea of nationhood for the Palestinians is finished (at least in the minds of Trump and the USA), which probably means that the chances of peace in Israel-Palestine are finished. In the scariest scenarios, the Israeli army can (further) clear large areas of the West Bank with absolutely no international consequences.
I apologise if everyone already knows this.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
mr. cheesy--
Yes, they'd be non-voting. Sorry. But that is in the article.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Fascist tendencies are showing. I've just finished watching 'The Man in the High Castle Season 2' and there are eerie parallels with alternative facts, overt patriotism, etc. Plus the personal sense that the US has lurched into an alternative time line.
BTW, Season 2 is highly recommended.
[ 24. January 2017, 09:12: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
As another poster and I were discussing some time back, the former Canadian PM Joe Clark also promised to move his country's embassy to Jerusalem back in the late 70s. Like most everything else about his premiership, that did not end well.
In case this needs reiterating, several countries have Consulate-General in Jerusalem including the USA and the UK. I don't know about the USA's, but the British C-G is in East Jerusalem and was there from before the 1967 war which annexed East Jersualem. It operates as a consular and diplomatic base between the UK and the Palestinian Authority (and, actually, anyone else who happens to be in East Jerusalem).
To move the Embassy to Israel is to tacitly support the Israeli narrative that they have united Jersualem and have authority over the whole city - which is currently considered occupied land. Doing that means that any idea of nationhood for the Palestinians is finished (at least in the minds of Trump and the USA), which probably means that the chances of peace in Israel-Palestine are finished. In the scariest scenarios, the Israeli army can (further) clear large areas of the West Bank with absolutely no international consequences.
I apologise if everyone already knows this.
Just to be clear, I am aware that moving the embassy to Jerusalem would be a pro-Israeli move. It was Trump's original proclamation(ie. neutrality on the status of Jerusalem), that I characterized as being (relatively) pro-Palestinian. His current embassy position, I think, is atonmement for the earlier heresy.
And yes, Joe Clark's '79 plans to move the Canadian embassy were widely recognized as pro-Israel as well. I think he was trying to get votes in a couple of ridings where support for Israel was strong.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Trump has named his inauguration day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion."
Stalin would be proud.
I know it's maybe not quite the same thing (forgive my ignorance), but I thought July 4th was the big patriotic day for Americans? Or is that to come in a distant second to Trump Day now?
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Trump has named his inauguration day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion."
Stalin would be proud.
I don't think Stalin would have had the Christian language. Which makes it a whole lot scarier.
I dunno. He certainly had the language; he was at one time a monk, or at least a monk wannabe. And he was not averse to using religious language ("Holy Mother Russia") to promote patriotism during WW2.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I am still trying to understand the illness or condition people down there caught for which trump offered a cure. Why are so many of you unhappy enough that you bought his patent medicine with promised cures?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I am still trying to understand the illness or condition people down there caught for which trump offered a cure. Why are so many of you unhappy enough that you bought his patent medicine with promised cures?
The disease they caught is being Western and middle-class.
And seriously, the USA has caught this worse than a lot of countries. The incomes of average Americans have stagnated badly. Our own former Prime Minsiter, Paul Keating, noted that over the last 20 years Australian incomes have increased 50 per cent and American incomes have increased.... zero.
Personally I think people faced with this problem were wrong to conclude that Trump would provide a cure as promised. But the disease is very, very real.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I am still trying to understand the illness or condition people down there caught for which trump offered a cure. Why are so many of you unhappy enough that you bought his patent medicine with promised cures?
The disease they caught is being Western and middle-class.
And seriously, the USA has caught this worse than a lot of countries. The incomes of average Americans have stagnated badly. Our own former Prime Minsiter, Paul Keating, noted that over the last 20 years Australian incomes have increased 50 per cent and American incomes have increased.... zero.
Personally I think people faced with this problem were wrong to conclude that Trump would provide a cure as promised. But the disease is very, very real.
And what do these middle-class Americans, who have had little or no wage increases in decades do? They hand more power and the presidency over to the rich..
I can't say much about the British, we do just the same thing.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I am still trying to understand the illness or condition people down there caught for which trump offered a cure. Why are so many of you unhappy enough that you bought his patent medicine with promised cures?
The disease they caught is being Western and middle-class.
And seriously, the USA has caught this worse than a lot of countries. The incomes of average Americans have stagnated badly. Our own former Prime Minsiter, Paul Keating, noted that over the last 20 years Australian incomes have increased 50 per cent and American incomes have increased.... zero.
Personally I think people faced with this problem were wrong to conclude that Trump would provide a cure as promised. But the disease is very, very real.
And what do these middle-class Americans, who have had little or no wage increases in decades do? They hand more power and the presidency over to the rich..
I can't say much about the British, we do just the same thing.
Well exactly, I just said, I think they were wrong to conclude Trump was any kind of solution. But that wasn't the question. The question was about what people were unhappy about.
Looking at it in that context, it's no wonder that protectionism sells. Globalisation means that the rich employers take their money and their jobs overseas, to places where labour is cheaper. The employers are happy because they cut costs. The new employees are happy.
It's the former employees, who weren't nearly as mobile as the money, that get left out of the bounty. It's far easier for an American company to go set up a factory in... Guatemala than it is for an American factory worker to go live in Guatemala.
Trump promises to drag the jobs back to the USA. His ability to deliver on that promise is another thing entirely, but that's the attractive promise.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
mt--
He chose that day? I heard him say, during the inauguration (IIRC), that there'd be a patriotic day, but nothing about it being *that* day. Even for him, that's pretty darn brazen.
It's not that different from what other presidents have done:
snopes
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
They hand more power and the presidency over to the rich
Given the way US elections work, was there another choice? Trump and Clinton are both in that category.
I'm not sure people think Trump is going to solve the problems; more that he'll be a wrecking ball. Why people want that would require an essay. It's not just about economics, and it's not that all Trump voters are racists or misogynists or stupid in spite of the dominant narrative.
Watching the media and authoritarian left reaction to this election has been like watching an exercise in willful ignorance.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
mt--
He chose that day? I heard him say, during the inauguration (IIRC), that there'd be a patriotic day, but nothing about it being *that* day. Even for him, that's pretty darn brazen.
It's not that different from what other presidents have done:
snopes
Great find. Your fact-checking diligence is worth its weight in gold.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Looking at it in that context, it's no wonder that protectionism sells. Globalisation means that the rich employers take their money and their jobs overseas, to places where labour is cheaper. The employers are happy because they cut costs. The new employees are happy.
It's the former employees, who weren't nearly as mobile as the money, that get left out of the bounty. It's far easier for an American company to go set up a factory in... Guatemala than it is for an American factory worker to go live in Guatemala.
Trump promises to drag the jobs back to the USA. His ability to deliver on that promise is another thing entirely, but that's the attractive promise.
But let's play that out a little more. So if he brings these jobs back to the USA, what will happen? Well, the reason the jobs were sent overseas was not because the companies wanted to do favors for Guatemala (or wherever), but because things could be made cheaper there. If the jobs are brought back to the USA, then the price of those products must go up. In other words, inflation. To keep the new, higher priced products competitive, the President plans tariffs. The point of tariffs is not that the producer is going to swallow the cost. Oh, no. The producer will raise prices on the imported goods to cover the tariff, so the price of imported goods goes up.
So the Trump plan is to drive up prices of both domestic and imported goods, triggering inflation. The American consumer (who presumably will not get an equivalent raise in pay) will then have less "buying power." Not everybody will be worse off, of course, because those new jobs will presumably be going to people who don't have jobs now, so their "buying power" will increase. So it isn't a total loss, but it will not be the great boon either as we brace for higher prices on top of stagnant wages.
However, the tariff scheme does have a neat twist to it that a politician would love: the tariff money goes to the government and, ultimately, the people paying that tariff will be the American consumer. It actually works like a tax on people without it being called a tax or even appearing to be a tax. Trump can then declare that he is "lowering" taxes and offset that with the money coming in from tariffs (paid by the American consumer). The difference is that paying taxes can sometimes be avoided (as Trump himself does) but paying higher prices because of tariffs cannot be so side-stepped. As such, the taxpayer, while apparently getting a "tax cut," could end up paying more to the government through higher product prices from tariffs.
Okay, major disclaimer here: I am not an economist and possibly everything I just wrote is woefully wrong because of some factor that economists know that I don't. I'm just saying that the above is the way it looks like to me pending getting further information.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Yes, the day of patriotic worship is nothing to get excited about. Presidents do this all the time, it is a one-shot and has nothing to do with national holidays (which involve giving workers the day off and calls for legislation).
IMO parsing the PG's statements for policy or meaning is a waste of energy. What he says from day to day is not consistent with anything else he has said at any other time. Wait until tomorrow and something new will be said. It has been snake oil from the outset. The number of people who voted for him, assuring themselves that he would only do what they dreamed of (and without considering how this would be possible) is very large. One of the great sadnesses of this political cycle is the revelation of how stupid the voting public really is.
[ 24. January 2017, 14:42: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
and it's not that all Trump voters are racists or misogynists or stupid in spite of the dominant narrative.
But all Trump voters had to ignore or justify all the racism and misogyny coming from Trump, and that is not nothing.
They also had to ignore all the lies*, lack of any coherent plan** and the fact that he has the self-control of an emotionally-stunted pre-teen with daddy issues.
Yes, there were legitimate concerns the electorate has that are not being addressed. Saying the left are the only ones ignoring this is ridiculous.
Trump will do nothing to solve his base's problems. Doesn't take any great political or economic mind to figure this out.
*His porkies were worse and more numerous than Clinton's.
**His economic plan, one of the few things he outlined, would be disastrous for his bas of voters.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But all Trump voters had to ignore or justify all the racism and misogyny coming from Trump, and that is not nothing.
I know several fairly smart, conservative women who were happy to dismiss his "locker room talk" as something that "all men do". They dismissed any thought of a difference between men in locker rooms having crude discussions about the sexual desirability and availability of various women, and men in locker rooms talking about using their authority and prestige to coerce women into sex.
They also latch on to Trump's claims about his Mar-a-Logo club as proof that he's not a racist, and so dismiss most of the racist environment surrounding him as "well, that's not him".
These aren't all white women, either: I know a couple of black women and a couple of white women with black husbands who fall in to this category.
They liked Trump's soundbites about reducing red tape for small business, and they support his protectionism and stance on illegal immigration (because rule of law and American exceptionalism).
But mostly they voted for him because he is supporting "pro-life" policies, whereas Clinton supports a woman's right to choose an abortion.
And they like Mike Pence.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
From across the pond, that's my reading as well. Trump's "conversion" to a pro-life position was thought as more important than the negative features.
More extended discussion on that point might be more appropriate to Dead Horses.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
He would have said anything, and has. People believed a selection of what they wanted to believe. The rest has been dismissed as unimportant, or 'he won't really take my healthcare' or some such. It was all a con, a slick fraud, and more than one conservative has realized that you can't fool all the people all of the time.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Forgot to add, there is video of him admitting that he urged one of his mistresses to get an abortion. His positions are purely a matter of his own convenience, from moment to moment. They have no meaning.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Forgot to add, there is video of him admitting that he urged one of his mistresses to get an abortion. His positions are purely a matter of his own convenience, from moment to moment. They have no meaning.
Sure. These people are under no illusions that Trump is the kind of man they'd like their daughters to bring home, but it's a question of what is likely.
What Trump thinks is irrelevant: what matters is what Trump will do, and they feel confident that Trump will appoint anti-abortion judges who will allow various states' attempts to restrict abortion. They know he doesn't have strong convictions, but they know he is standing next to someone who does, and is likely to go along with it.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
They also had to ignore all the lies*, lack of any coherent plan** ....
Brexit, anyone? Or right-wing nut job party down here, whose vote is apparently increasing?
I'm fast coming to the conclusion things like this do not matter to a sizeable proportion of the population. It troubles me, but more troubling is how we can address it. People are so dissatisfied with the status quo/current "career" politicians, etc., that someone who comes out and speaks "what we all think" is seen as a Messiah.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Saying the left are the only ones ignoring this is ridiculous.
Trump will do nothing to solve his base's problems. Doesn't take any great political or economic mind to figure this out.
I worry "the left", media especially, isn't enganging though. An article I read yesterday from a left online media source correctly said left and right are ignorning economic issues:
quote:
What is also real is the refusal by liberals to permit economic discussion beyond, “Do you think Trump is going to fix that stuff? Hahaha you useful idiot.”
Trump is clearly not going to repair the gross economic inequality of America. But Trump clearly said, unlike Hillary Clinton, that he would. He was the only nominee making that promise. This does not make him the better nominee. It did make him the only one willing to concede that wages had diminished.
While I have busied myself being frustrated by the inability of my left and liberal peers to concede that a 40-year decline in real wages has created the conditions for a sack of shit to be elected president, I did not notice that the alt-right had become similarly opposed to economic talk.
I agree with you that Trump is not the answer, but while you say "Doesn't take any great political or economic mind to figure this out" I think you're bringing your educated and erudite mind into it, which is right and good -- but Trump supporters may be less so. From reports I read during the election they were hurting, and as the quote above attests, Trump was the only one speaking to their needs/hurts. What the answer is I have f-all idea. But, perhaps naively, and happy to have my thoughts torn apart/corrected, I think the dialogue needs to change.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I am still trying to understand the illness or condition people down there caught for which trump offered a cure. Why are so many of you unhappy enough that you bought his patent medicine with promised cures?
It might be that condition being referred to as 'Social Malaise' , which still doesn't answer your question .
Too much of everything maybe, the speed at which technology is changing, or is it plain old boredom?
If anyone wants recent historical evidence of this *malaise* some exists here, tucked away in the bowels of this vessel. Threads entitled 'Disillusioned with Politics' etc. Or indeed study the early commentary on the US Election thread when everything seemed like a mix ot the totally boring and the painfully lack lustre. Now look what's happened !
It is likely that this isn't simply a Maverick dropping out of the sky and grabbing Power, but a more general factor whereby the whole population wasn't careful enough over what it wished for.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But all Trump voters had to ignore or justify all the racism and misogyny coming from Trump, and that is not nothing.
They also had to ignore all the lies*, lack of any coherent plan** and the fact that he has the self-control of an emotionally-stunted pre-teen with daddy issues.
Yes, they did, and many probably did so wilfully. And most of his voter will know and agree that he's an s.o.b. However, we who are off the breadline, rather underestimate how disliked Hillary Clinton was. In the speeches I saw of her, she looked tired and without ideas, and she projected this air of entitlement (time for a woman, time for me). She supported all sorts of minorities, which is fine, but she had little or nothing to offer low-income White America. Whatever she stood for, it was more of the same drudgery for them. Trump OTOH offered change, however risky. If you feel you have not far to fall, then risk begins to look like a rational bet. I think that the Democrats made a capital mistake by not given Bernie Sanders a real chance. He has his heart in the right place and he would have mopped the floor with Trump. Anyhow, that's all spilt milk, so we now have to see how we clear up the mess by other means.
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... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Looking at it in that context, it's no wonder that protectionism sells. Globalisation means that the rich employers take their money and their jobs overseas, to places where labour is cheaper. The employers are happy because they cut costs. The new employees are happy.
It's the former employees, who weren't nearly as mobile as the money, that get left out of the bounty. It's far easier for an American company to go set up a factory in... Guatemala than it is for an American factory worker to go live in Guatemala.
Trump promises to drag the jobs back to the USA. His ability to deliver on that promise is another thing entirely, but that's the attractive promise.
But let's play that out a little more. So if he brings these jobs back to the USA, what will happen? Well, the reason the jobs were sent overseas was not because the companies wanted to do favors for Guatemala (or wherever), but because things could be made cheaper there. If the jobs are brought back to the USA, then the price of those products must go up. In other words, inflation. To keep the new, higher priced products competitive, the President plans tariffs. The point of tariffs is not that the producer is going to swallow the cost. Oh, no. The producer will raise prices on the imported goods to cover the tariff, so the price of imported goods goes up.
So the Trump plan is to drive up prices of both domestic and imported goods, triggering inflation. The American consumer (who presumably will not get an equivalent raise in pay) will then have less "buying power." Not everybody will be worse off, of course, because those new jobs will presumably be going to people who don't have jobs now, so their "buying power" will increase. So it isn't a total loss, but it will not be the great boon either as we brace for higher prices on top of stagnant wages.
However, the tariff scheme does have a neat twist to it that a politician would love: the tariff money goes to the government and, ultimately, the people paying that tariff will be the American consumer. It actually works like a tax on people without it being called a tax or even appearing to be a tax. Trump can then declare that he is "lowering" taxes and offset that with the money coming in from tariffs (paid by the American consumer). The difference is that paying taxes can sometimes be avoided (as Trump himself does) but paying higher prices because of tariffs cannot be so side-stepped. As such, the taxpayer, while apparently getting a "tax cut," could end up paying more to the government through higher product prices from tariffs.
Okay, major disclaimer here: I am not an economist and possibly everything I just wrote is woefully wrong because of some factor that economists know that I don't. I'm just saying that the above is the way it looks like to me pending getting further information.
Personally I've no argument with any of that. You may well be right.
The problem is, the argument about whether that stuff would actually work should have been made before the election. But no-one on the left side of politics was listening. Everyone was too busy playing Trump the man - talking about how awful he is as a person - and not considering any reason why people would vote for him except the assumption that they must be awful people too.
Meanwhile, Bernie Sanders was actually making some of the same noises about the effects of globalisation, and getting considerable support. Bernie Sanders not being an awful person.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I didn't suggest any particular strategy for the Democrats, only that fear of payback is foolish given the Republicans' demonstrated propensity to obstruct no matter what. Obstruction may be less successful as an opposition stance for Democrats than it has been for Republicans, but trying to block bad policies is the higher moral ground; it would be foolish to adopt a policy of kissing Trump's ass in the vain hope that in four years' time the Republicans might just stop acting like Republicans.
The high ground is not about blocking bad policy. Which ground to occupy is going to be a choice between accommodation where there is shared interest with Trump and complete opposition. Those advocating accommodation will face stiff resistance and have legitimate fear for their re-electability.
The complete opposition approach throws governing out the window and legitimizes the Republican approach. I think the Republicans were successful at it because they could much more effectively channel the narrowly focused anger of the Tea Party which at its core is anti-governmental. So there is not something inherently conflicting in their message. Government is the problem to them, so debilitating it does not pose an existential quandary.
So this is not about payback or kissing ass in my estimation. Hopefully I am not extending this conversation beyond its shelf life.
Well it appears that your estimation has changed, then, since in your original formulation it was exactly about payback. Does this sound familiar? quote:
My point is if the initial starting position is complete resistance and total commitment to the defeat of the incoming administration, you should ready yourself for that in 4 years if the Democrats were to regain the Presidency.
Given the experience of the last eight years this is still a farcical warning, since Democrats can have no reasonable expectation of future cooperation in any case.
But I think we've gone around this mulberry bush a sufficient number of times. You seem unwilling to either defend or abandon that statement, or even acknowledge that you made it at all, so I suppose there's really no reason for me to attempt to discuss it. We'll just attribute it to "Anon." and let it go.
I think it's worth trying to clarify (at least for me). Here is what I said in full
My point is if the initial starting position is complete resistance and total commitment to the defeat of the incoming administration, you should ready yourself for that in 4 years if the Democrats were to regain the Presidency.
The Democrats have a higher hurdle as well given the number of state legislatures, Governorships, and House seats the Republicans now control and are likely to retain. Sure, the Republicans started this intransigence game first, but playing along I don't t think will benefit the Democrats. They need a strategy to win the electorate that went for Trump and not just stay the course and play to their base. I haven't seen any signs that strategy is forming or emerging.
I was not trying to say be ready for payback if there is total resistance to Trump. All I am saying is if total resistance is the strategy, and there is another Democratic President elected, we'll just be back to where we were (and it might be worse if Trump were made a martyr of sorts). Nothing would really be solved as a result. We should be ready for that.
I don't think the Democrats can just focus on tearing Trump down. They have to win over at least part of the electorate that voted for him. I don't think straight out attack mode will do that.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
I'm not interested in chasing you around that bush again, Alt Wally.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
There's a "make the rich pay" in here somewhere, surely!
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
His minions know well that Dishonest Don will say and believe whatever it was he last heard. Her's an article detailing the ongoing struggle for the vast empty reaches of the PG's mind.
This has even hit the news in several papers in Europe, and probably across the rest of world!
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by molopata:
However, we who are off the breadline, rather underestimate how disliked Hillary Clinton was.
Actually those on the breadline voted for Hillary overall. It was those more above the breadline who voted for Trump.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I wandered over to the very conservative and elitist National Review to see what they had to say about Trump. Many of the articles on the front page are the sorts you'd expect. But then I found this rather measured one.
"President Trump: A View From Across The Pond."
Thoughts?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
molopata: quote:
...[Hillary Clinton] projected this air of entitlement...
On the one hand, a politician with years of experience, including a stint as secretary of state representing her country to other nations.
On the other, a billionaire (who inherited his wealth) whose major achievements include running beauty contests and hosting a reality TV show, with no political experience whatsoever.
Just remind me again which one of them is "entitled"? It looks to me like the rich white man who has just been catapulted into the most important job in the USA with no idea of what it involves and no plan of what to do now he's there.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Actually those on the breadline voted for Hillary overall. It was those more above the breadline who voted for Trump.
To an extent - there was a swing to Trump among lower paid voters (even if a majority of lower paid voters voted for Clinton). In state like Wisconsin, this was enough to swing the state from Clinton to Trump.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I see from BBC news this morning that President Pussygrabber intends to go along with his idea of a border wall between the US of A and Mexico.
How will this megalomaniacal scheme work? Some questions from this side of the pond:
1. How long is the border?
2. Of what will the wall be built?
3. How many border guards/watchtowers/fierce dogs/machine guns etc. will be needed?
4. Who will do the actual construction?
5. How much will it cost?
6. How long will it take to build?
7. Hasn't anyone told the Pussygrabber that ships and aircraft (known, I believe, to the Mexicans) can circumvent or overfly the wall?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
7. Hasn't anyone told the Pussygrabber that ships and aircraft (known, I believe, to the Mexicans) can circumvent or overfly the wall?
IJ
You do realize this isn't directed against the Mexican military, right?
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Hmm....maybe so, but even non-military Mexicans can get hold of ships/boats/aircraft/balloons etc., no?
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
IOW, the idea is insane and unworkable, yet another sign (if one were needed) that the PG is in La La Land...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
To an extent - there was a swing to Trump among lower paid voters (even if a majority of lower paid voters voted for Clinton).
I don't follow. A swing from what? A swing from what might be expected from earlier polling or previous elections? Either way a majority is a majority - majorities are only ever majorities to an extent. If only the vote for Americans earning less than 50kUSD per year was counted Clinton would have been elected.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
IOW, the idea is insane and unworkable, yet another sign (if one were needed) that the PG is in La La Land...
IJ
You do realise that whenever I see these initials or the words fully spelt out (!) that I have this vision of Donald Duck carrying a pussy-cat on each arm!!!! ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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