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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A Lutheran minister of eye-watering stupidity opines about the Texas shooting. Jesus wept.

No Jesus didn't weep. Let's shoot Jesus! That's what pastors like this do. Jesus lies on floor with a bullet in his head. Which is really wonderfully great because he's God etc. [Help]

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

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Here's the original column in the Federalist:

When the Saints of First Baptist Church Were Murdered, God Was Answering Their Prayers

Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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There are days where I get up, read something, and just want to crawl back into bed. It may be 12:50pm, but I just want to do that after reading that last article.

God I hope the relatives and friends of those murdered do not see this. A vain hope, perhaps.

Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Good freaking grief! Flip side of the kind of crap Pat Robertson says about bad things happening because God is punishing us for LGBT folks, etc.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18594 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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Doesn't this so-called "pastor" realize the difference between "Dear Lord, let me live my days in anticipation of your calling me to the reward you have prepared" and "Dear Lord, let some loonie shoot me full of holes so I can be with you"?

Oy veh!

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
"Dear Lord, let some loonie shoot me full of holes so I can be with you"?

Oy veh!

I read the Prayers of the People at our late afternoon Eucharist yesterday. Darn -- I forgot to include that!

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Doesn't this so-called "pastor" realize the difference between "Dear Lord, let me live my days in anticipation of your calling me to the reward you have prepared" and "Dear Lord, let some loonie shoot me full of holes so I can be with you"?

Oy veh!

I wonder if that pastor were offered the choice, which he'd take? No, I lie. I don't wonder at all.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

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Here's hoping that this guys God answers his prayers about himeself. People who try to manipulate Theodicy do look stupid.
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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There's been another school shooting.

link here. [Frown]

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
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# 9881

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You can't make this shit up: Responsible Gun Owner.

Can't even draw his gun without fucking shooting somebody by accident. No charges, he keeps his permit, and he plans to keep on carrying. The tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of innocents.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:

Can't even draw his gun without fucking shooting somebody by accident. No charges, he keeps his permit, and he plans to keep on carrying.

If, at my place of employment, there was a failure of safety protocols such that two people were injured by a dangerous piece of equipment, there would be a root cause / HPI investigation to determine what needs to be changed about procedures and technical measures to reduce the chance of a repeat accident, and probably I would have my certifications to operate the piece of machinery revoked and have to undergo retraining and requalification.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
You can't make this shit up: Responsible Gun Owner.

Can't even draw his gun without fucking shooting somebody by accident.

And in a church, no less! Certainly no rejoicing in heaven, I shouldn't imagine.

--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
You can't make this shit up: Responsible Gun Owner.

Can't even draw his gun without fucking shooting somebody by accident. No charges, he keeps his permit, and he plans to keep on carrying. The tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of innocents.

There's two slightly better ends to this story. First, he could have killed his wife. Second, someone could have shot him after he shot his wife, not uttering the sentence "before I kill you, there's just one thing I want to know." Because no-one can answer it.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
You can't make this shit up: Responsible Gun Owner.

Can't even draw his gun without fucking shooting somebody by accident. No charges, he keeps his permit, and he plans to keep on carrying. The tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of innocents.

Such a pretty little church, too!

At first I laughed at the absurdity and made allowances for the man being 83; but what the heck was the pastor thinking letting him pass the thing around? Who were the people stroking a gun during the service? And lastly, who was the gormless buffoon who hadn't had a chance to handle the gun when the other guys did so he actually asks the old timer to take it back out of his pocket? Could he not wait until the service was over?

Was there any time left for a service at all or was it just show and tell of the things they want for Christmas? Will it become a tradition to pass around their killing instruments during the passing of the peace?


The missus has three bullet holes in her now, two in the abdomen and one in her right forearm. She was sitting down (in her wheelchair) so we can hope the path through her abdomen was, as they say, "a flesh wound," but that bullet in her forearm has to be serious and may cause her to lose some of the use of her right hand.

I wonder if she was in favor of her man carrying his gun wherever he goes so he could protect her.

We're going to hear more and more of the, "It was an accident," excuse as idiots carry guns everywhere. When do people have a right to go to church with an expectation of not being shot and some sort of recourse if they are?
[Mad] [Killing me] [Mad] [Waterworks] [brick wall]

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
...stroking a gun during the service?

I'm having a Freudian moment just now. Is this how the devil comes? (yes I meant that both ways)

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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This is a Facebook link but it should work. Have a look at the photograph he posted on Nov. 17. A church sign for our times.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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What caliber weapon would Jesus use?

--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411

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Meanwhile France seems to have had a (second?) small depressed-cop rampage plus an increased number of suicides as they keep their guns off-duty.

Additional indirect victims of the terrorist attacks there
(mirror)

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is a Facebook link but it should work. Have a look at the photograph he posted on Nov. 17. A church sign for our times.

Any attempt at what? It could be read as "Welcome. If you try to enter you will be shot."

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
What caliber weapon would Jesus use?

Obviously the .45 ACP, in a Colt 1911 pistol - designed, of course, by John Moses Browning. It's obviously God's own favorite.

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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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At least he stayed and called 911.

[Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13028 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
At least he stayed and called 911.

Looks like manslaughter in the second degree under New York law. Should be probably 5 years in jail for the hunter. I'd mark it as aggravated manslaughter because of the clear failure to obtain positive target identification, and the willful choice to continue hunting after dusk, which is a legally imposed safety measure to prevent exactly this kind of thing.

But, of course, IANAL anywhere, let alone in New York.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
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# 17338

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Hunting deer with a pistol ??? A crock of s**t. The guy was out with his toy and just loosed off when he saw a blur/heard a sound.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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The pistol thing seems very weird to me, too. I thought the whole mind trip for hunters was to pretend they were pioneers out hunting to feed the family.

I do think, "No shooting after sunset," is too vague. Anyone who has ever been outside playing tennis or softball late in the day knows how your eyes keep adjusting for a long time before you realize it's grown dark. During hunting season the weather channel should announce cut off times every afternoon, visibility is going to vary with weather as well as time of sunset.

Poor lady. I heard of this happening when a woman was in her own back yard wearing white mittens that looked like a deer tale to the hunter.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Sheriff Joe Gerace told the Buffalo News that Jadlowski used a single-shot handgun permissible for deer hunting.

To me the crazy stupid thing is that he shot before identifying what he was shooting at.

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Good grief.

Thanks for the link to the WP article. The woman who died sounds like a wonderful person. And her poor husband.

Shooting, after sunset? At something 200 yards away? From his backyard? What, he was overcome by a sudden craving for venison?

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18594 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Hunting with a handgun on a residential street. Deer, people all fun to kill. [brick wall]
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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It's not guns that scare me, it's that there are too many idiots like this guy that own them.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
At least he stayed and called 911.

Looks like manslaughter in the second degree under New York law. Should be probably 5 years in jail for the hunter. I'd mark it as aggravated manslaughter because of the clear failure to obtain positive target identification, and the willful choice to continue hunting after dusk, which is a legally imposed safety measure to prevent exactly this kind of thing.

But, of course, IANAL anywhere, let alone in New York.

My reading of the WP article referenced by Ruth was that he might not be charged with anything, except maybe for shooting after sunset.

As horrifying and stupid as the man's actions were, he did call 911 and personally put pressure on the wound while waiting.

So I think I would grant him some mercy, depending on what charges were brought. And bar him from ever owning or using a gun again, and from hunting of any kind.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18594 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
He might not be charged with anything, except maybe for shooting after sunset. . . . I think I would grant him some mercy, depending on what charges were brought. And bar him from ever owning or using a gun again, and from hunting of any kind.

Should bring consolation and closure to the grieving husband, wouldn't you think? **NOT!** I hope the husband has retained a good lawyer.

[ 25. November 2017, 10:20: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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It was clearly an accident. He didn't mean to shoot the woman.

It is, however, only the kind of accident you can have when you have a gun.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It is, however, only the kind of accident you can have when you have a gun.

Especially when you have a gun without the proper training needed to handle it properly. I know I know nothing about hunting, it being something that has never had any attraction to me. But, whenever it comes up on a TV programme, and it's quite common on the countryside programmes that I watch quite regularly, there is a very strong message of the aim of the hunter to make a quick clean kill, a single shot that's an instant kill so that the deer, or whatever, suffers minimal pain. How you can make such a shot in failing light, let alone with a hand gun rather than a rifle, is something I don't understand. Surely the first lesson on "how to hunt" (whether that's a formal training course or what your pa taught you as a child) would be to make sure you have the right weapon and can clearly see your target.

An accident, quite clearly. But, if you drive recklessly and kill someone with your car you face appropriate charges of causing death by dangerous driving. And, in some cases a charge of manslaughter would be appropriate. There must surely be some equivalent set of criminal charges that can be filed against someone who recklessly discharges a firearm, especially if that causes death of injury.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32411 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It is, however, only the kind of accident you can have when you have a gun.

Especially when you have a gun without the proper training needed to handle it properly.
Oh, deary me no.

Those who've been through weeks of training - combat training - with handguns and rifles and machine guns still have accidental or negligent discharges. They can be experienced soldiers or firearm-equipped law enforcement, and have previously used their weapons in a wide variety of scenarios, and yet, due to malfunction or a moment's inattention, end up with a live round up the pipe when they shouldn't, or someone wanders onto the range, or the map reference is wrong, or all manner of blunders.

Bang.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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I never said that proper training means that accidents never happen. I would expect that accidents would be less frequent with proper training. And, instruction in how to hunt would at least mean that people know a hand gun isn't the right tool for the job and this particular accident would never have happened. With the knowledge that in failing light you can't clearly identify your target and a clean kill shot is very much harder, a hunter will have put away their gun and headed home. It's the nature of a sport like hunting or fishing that there are days when you just don't get anything, and you know when it's time to call it a day and try again another day.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32411 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I never said that proper training means that accidents never happen. I would expect that accidents would be less frequent with proper training.

No, no, no.

Accidents are more likely due to the training. The more training exercises that happen, the more opportunity there is to have an accident, and the more people die. No training, no deaths (at least from accidents while training).

The best place for a gun is locked in a cabinet, and its ammunition locked in a separate cabinet. The moment you bring the gun and its ammunition together, the chances of an accident have gone from zero to non-trivial. The more you train with it, the higher the cumulative chance of having a fatal accident with it.

I've once used a firearm. In the thirty years since, my chance of fatally injuring someone with a firearm has been none. My non-training is far safer than someone else's meticulous drills.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It was clearly an accident. He didn't mean to shoot the woman.

If I read the article linked to above correctly, (1) the shooter was at home, not out hunting; (2) he saw something in his back yard; (3) in the failing light he thought it was a deer (not sure, just looks like one); (4) oh goody, he thought, let's shoot it -- no good reason to, I'm not out hunting, it's just something I can easily kill and so I shall; (5) guess what? It wasn't a deer, it was a woman.

Accident my foot! It was a deliberate attempt to kill something just because it was moving in his back yard. Who cares what it was? Deer? Maybe. Human being? Well, surprise, surprise!

I have nothing but contempt for this individual. No pity.

--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It was clearly an accident. He didn't mean to shoot the woman.

Agreed that he had no intent to injure the woman. That's what makes it second degree manslaughter rather than first degree or murder.

Because he did intentionally discharge his weapon with reckless disregard for public safety: he shot, in the twilight, at something that he couldn't clearly see in the hope that it might be a deer.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

Accidents are more likely due to the training.[..]The more you train with it, the higher the cumulative chance of having a fatal accident with it.

You're both right, and I think you know it [Biased]

Doc is correct that every time the weapon comes out, there is a non-zero chance of an accident.

Alan is correct that a trained, experienced individual has much less chance per usage of having an accident.

Guns are not different from any other dangerous activity in this context.

Assuming that you're going to perform the dangerous activity anyway, your total risk of accident is reduced by controlled training and practice, even though some of the practice carries a non-zero chance of accident.

And regardless of how well trained you are, you always want to minimize your exposure to potential accident scenarios.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I never said that proper training means that accidents never happen. I would expect that accidents would be less frequent with proper training.

No, no, no.

Accidents are more likely due to the training. The more training exercises that happen, the more opportunity there is to have an accident, and the more people die. No training, no deaths (at least from accidents while training).

Indeed, 'tis why the military have decided to forego training. And why people do not train for driving.
People buy weapons for their use when necessary/desired. If such an event occurs, lack of training significantly raises the possibility of injury to a non-intended party
Also, training isn't only in actual use, but in when and how and education in the risks.
The safest option in gun ownership is to forego it completely. Barring that, training in the use and safety is far better than buying one and locking it way forthwith.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Re "shooting in his backyard":

AIUI, there's an open field out beyond both backyards. That's where the neighbor woman was, walking her dogs.

The shooter was in his backyard. I don't know about his place, but American backyards generally aren't huge. If an actual deer had wandered into his backyard, he probably would've been able to identify it, even at that time of day--by its outline, if nothing else.

But he shot at something 200 yds. away, in that field. If he was able to see much of anything at all, which I doubt, you'd think that he'd at least be able to tell that his target wasn't the general size and shape of a deer. Unless maybe the neighbor wore a brown suede jacket?

I wonder if he was under the influence of anything.

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
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Wesley J

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The influence of the NRA, undoubtedly.

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Golden Key
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Quite possibly, though not all gun owners are in the NRA. It just shouts very loudly.

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--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
There must surely be some equivalent set of criminal charges that can be filed against someone who recklessly discharges a firearm, especially if that causes death of injury.

I don't know what laws NY has. But, around here, I think you can get in trouble for firing a gun into the air as a sign of celebration (e.g., New Year's, etc.; probably a substitute for fireworks). Because the bullet comes back down, somewhere...

Rather like the older kind of lawn darts, with a metal tip. There've been horrible accidents--lethal, IIRC. They're periodically banned, then brought back. Not sure of their current status.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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You dont generally shoot deer at 200 yards [i]with a rifle[/url]. Most at 50 or 60. The shooter is an idiot, a murderous idiot.
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I wonder if he was under the influence of anything.

Testosterone

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

The shooter was in his backyard. I don't know about his place, but American backyards generally aren't huge. If an actual deer had wandered into his backyard, he probably would've been able to identify it, even at that time of day--by its outline, if nothing else.

But he shot at something 200 yds. away, in that field. If he was able to see much of anything at all, which I doubt, you'd think that he'd at least be able to tell that his target wasn't the general size and shape of a deer. Unless maybe the neighbor wore a brown suede jacket?

Long-range pistol shooting is a thing, so is hunting with one.
Two hundred yards is two American football fields in distance. At that distance at sunset (and after), anything will be small and not easily identified, especially in long grass or brush. So that he was not able to properly identify what he saw is understandable.
That he shot anyway is not acceptable.

quote:

I wonder if he was under the influence of anything.

Hunters shoot things that are not their prey all the time without need of any drug to haze their perceptions.
Were I forced to guess, I would say that the man had seen deer in that area previously. Still not an excuse.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Alan Cresswell

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I would also hazard a guess that his neighbour, and probably several others in the area, had walked her dog there far, far more times than deer had wandered that close to human settlement. And, been seen far more frequently.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I would also hazard a guess that his neighbour, and probably several others in the area, had walked her dog there far, far more times than deer had wandered that close to human settlement. And, been seen far more frequently.

Very likely true. I am making no excuses for the shooting, just working out the circumstances.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I am making no excuses for the shooting, just working out the circumstances.

Ditto.

I raised the possibility of shooting under the influence because this is such a horrible--and, by accounts--stupid thing. And mixing gun use with drink/drugs fits that profile. Though if the shooter was able to move quickly enough to get to the woman, call 911, and put pressure on her wound, he'd seem to have had at least a modicum of physical balance and common sense.

One other possible factor: some gardeners consider deer pests, due to chewed up gardens. People take various actions to deter them--high chain-link fences, hanging out clothing that's stinky with human sweat, etc. If he thinks of deer that way, then *might* have some right to kill a deer *in his yard*, but not 200 yds. away.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Niteowl

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But the question still comes down to why did he shoot before verifying what he was shooting - especially since he knew his neighbor walked her dog every night. Manslaughter charges should be filed.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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