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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Bloody Brexiteers
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
[Many settler colonies were] places where English people were automatically superior to the indigenous populations, where English was the language of government and the civil service, and where English immigrants were 'ex-pats', not immigrants.
So, no. Not the same experience [as foreigners moving to the UK].
Speaking for myself, I was thinking about the here and now, and my point is simply that rather than worrying about foreigners who are coming to live here, British people who are dissatisfied with their lives should have been encouraged to go elsewhere. Anywhere. Brexit would then have seemed less attractive.
People have been saying that Brexit appealed to the 'stupid', but I don't think this is necessarily true. Stupid people don't always care about politics, and many of them can't be bothered to vote.
Rather, I'd say that Brexit appealed to the dissatisfied. The EU was always likely to appeal to the most satisfied members of our society, i.e. to people who were optimistic about their future, happy with their foreign trips, their jobs with European-owned companies, and their EU-funded research grants, etc.
As I say, it's up to governments to either re-educate the dissatisfied, or else encourage them to leave. Our politicians have failed on both counts, and I don't feel sorry for any of them.
[ 27. July 2016, 14:03: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I have longed believe the following is at the basis of many poor areas small mindedness.
I am taking the fictional place of Dullthorpe. When the local industry was strong there was a strong influx of people so the area is perhaps 40% immigrant. However, the communities have largely co-existed rather than integrated. There is integration at the edge as some share the same pub but largely it is each to their own.
Alan, Bob, Chris, Dave and Eric got jobs straight out of school working for the major employer XYZ Conglomerates. It is a factory where teams are highly important and they end up on the same team.
However, ten years ago XYZ went bust which gave the town a high unemployment level and meant Alan, Bob, Chris, Dave and Eric were made redundant.
Now a new firm called xekína have opened up and they have advertised for twenty new jobs. Alan, Bob, Chris, Dave and Eric all apply but only Alan, Bob, Chris, and Dave. However, two jobs go to people who belong to the immigrant community and one of these Emlyn is put in the same office as Alan, Bob, Chris and Dave.
What Alan, Bob, Chris and Dave see is that this Emlyn has the job that otherwise may have gone to Eric. What they do not see is that actually, the immigrant group is under-represented in the recruitment having only 10% when it makes up 40% of the town.
Alan, Bob, Chris, Dave and Eric perception of the town is that it is far more local than it actually is because their friends are primarily local and the exceptions are immigrants. They also have far stronger connections with locals in their group and they would probably distinguish themselves from other local groups in the town. To them, it is not about some abstract notion of fairness but the fact Eric has not got a job. It probably does not bother then to have a drink down the pub with Geraint, nor particularly think of how their antagonism to the immigrants for taking Eric's job might feel for him in the end. This is because the attitude is not about a fear of the unknown, but rather of looking after ones own.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
What happened to Ffion? Did she simply stay at home?
Speaking seriously, I think you've got a point ... it's linked into the "we never hear English spoken at the shops any more" even though perhaps 80 or even 90% of people are actually using it!
[ 27. July 2016, 16:52: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Speaking for myself, I was thinking about the here and now, and my point is simply that rather than worrying about foreigners who are coming to live here, British people who are dissatisfied with their lives should have been encouraged to go elsewhere. Anywhere. Brexit would then have seemed less attractive.
This argument is just as stupid as applied to Brexit as it is applied to anything else. I hear the second amendment gang use it about gun control ("This is America. We have guns. If you don't like it, leave.")
And the argument is stupid.
It's just as easy for the Brexiteers to turn around and say "We won. If you like the EU so much, please move to France", and just as stupid.
It is entirely possible (and indeed quite likely) for someone to be dissatisfied with some aspect of contemporary life in the UK, but nevertheless feel that the UK is the best place for him to live. The fact that it's better for him than other possible countries doesn't mean that it's the best that it could be, and it is his democratic right and his democratic duty to try and persuade his fellow countrymen to agree with him.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The issue is one of adaptability and a global-minded approach, backed up by education and skills. If the govt had helped to generate this kind of thing among working class people long before Brexit, there would probably have been no Brexit.
What I'm talking about here is a failure of the state to ensure that working class people got a good education, learnt foreign languages and acquired skills and trades that could get them viable jobs abroad if not at home. There's nothing 'stupid' about that.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
What I'm talking about here is a failure of the state to ensure that working class people got a good education, learnt foreign languages and acquired skills and trades that could get them viable jobs abroad if not at home. There's nothing 'stupid' about that.
I'd prefer the state to focus on make sure there are enough jobs here at home, to be honest.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
That would be lovely. Although without a better education system there are many British people who wouldn't get those jobs anyway.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Marvin: quote:
I'd prefer the state to focus on make sure there are enough jobs here at home, to be honest.
Oh, don't worry, there will be. Worried about the loss of EU research funding and the consequences for British scientists? Concerned that British universities are going to go bankrupt due to the immigration restrictions for overseas students? Console yourself with the thought that McDonald's is investing more in the UK! And if all else fails, the Government will probably start up the Work Programme again, though I daresay they will think of another name for it; how about 'The Workhouse'?
Of course, if you don't want a minimum-wage job you may find yourself having to move elsewhere. I probably won't notice much difference; as a self-employed person I have no employment rights anyway and most of my clients are multinationals who won't care whether we're in the UK or not.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
What I'm talking about here is a failure of the state to ensure that working class people got a good education, learnt foreign languages and acquired skills and trades that could get them viable jobs abroad if not at home. There's nothing 'stupid' about that.
I'd prefer the state to focus on make sure there are enough jobs here at home, to be honest.
This, Marvin: http://www.heraldscotland.com/resources/images/5141122/?type=responsive-gallery
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
What I'm talking about here is a failure of the state to ensure that working class people got a good education, learnt foreign languages and acquired skills and trades that could get them viable jobs abroad if not at home. There's nothing 'stupid' about that.
I'd prefer the state to focus on make sure there are enough jobs here at home, to be honest.
This, Marvin: http://www.heraldscotland.com/resources/images/5141122/?type=responsive-gallery
If businesses hadn't got so used to a constant flow of cheap labour coming in from elsewhere, they would have probably made louder noises about UK educational standards than they have and the person referred to would have better skills to go with the STI.
We probably wouldn't have some of the lowest wages in Europe - bar Greece - either.
Tubbs
[ 28. July 2016, 12:53: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
This is because the attitude is not about a fear of the unknown, but rather of looking after ones own.
Jengie
You do not see that this is xenophobia? Immigrants are perpetually other. Immigrants. How long must a person's family have be in a place before they are no longer an immigrant?* Can you understand how frustrating it is to be told to leave by people whose family history in the country is several hundred years less than ones own?
*Trick question: The answer is until the colour fades enough to not be seen.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
In some places (even when skin colour matches) it can take 40 years for you to cease to be regarded as an offcomer.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
In some places (even when skin colour matches) it can take 40 years for you to cease to be regarded as an offcomer.
I've lived in Norfolk too. In South Wales people talk to you freely probably the second time you enter a bar. In Norfolk I reckon you have to be there two generations.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
In some places (even when skin colour matches) it can take 40 years for you to cease to be regarded as an offcomer.
Our present Queen is directly descended from those born and bred in the UK since 1738 (278 years and 8 generations) and living here since 1714 (302 years and ten generations) but the ignorant still refer to her as German.
Ironically, George I came to England in 1714 which was only 101 years and two generations after his grandmother left Britain in 1613.
The reality, then, is that if one is emigrating one quickly becomes "non-belonging" but if one is immigrating one might never stop "non-belonging"!
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
In some places (even when skin colour matches) it can take 40 years for you to cease to be regarded as an offcomer.
Our present Queen is directly descended from those born and bred in the UK since 1738 (278 years and 8 generations) and living here since 1714 (302 years and ten generations) but the ignorant still refer to her as German.
Ironically, George I came to England in 1714 which was only 101 years and two generations after his grandmother left Britain in 1613.
The reality, then, is that if one is emigrating one quickly becomes "non-belonging" but if one is immigrating one might never stop "non-belonging"!
Come off it, the whole 'German' thing is largely facetious and is based less on the fact that George I was Elector of Hanover and more to do with the fact that, as a result of Queen Victoria's marriage to Prince Albert, the Royal dynasty gloried in the name of Saxe-Coburg Gotha until World War I, when they changed their names to Windsor. Hence, the Kaiser's quip about looking forward to seeing a performance of 'The Merry Wives of Saxe-Coburg Gotha'. Kaiser Bill had his faults but he did really put to rest the idea that Germans have no sense of humour.
But, really, the population of the UK really divides into three parts. Those who think the Queen is really, really wonderful and cannot walk past a shop selling crockery with her face, form and visage on it without nipping in and buying a few items, those of us who think that if we were inventing the constitution from scratch wouldn't have a constitutional monarch but, as we've got one, we might as well let them get on with it and a smaller group of republicans who really want an elected Head of State, but object to the Queen on the hereditary monarchy basis, rather than because of the fact that she is of German descent. Given the Queen Elizabeth's popularity, I hardly think that she can be characterised as "non-belonging". I would imagine that the sort of people who join 'Republic" and the sort of people who spent the weekend after Brexit putting notes through Polish peoples letter boxes telling them to go home have very little in common but if you put it to either of them that it would be a good idea to organise a demo outside Buck House with placards reading "Saxe-Coburg Gotha Go Home!" they would, for different reasons, conclude that you had entirely taken leave of your senses.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
quote:
Our present Queen is directly descended from those born and bred in the UK since 1738 (278 years and 8 generations) and living here since 1714 (302 years and ten generations) but the ignorant still refer to her as German.
I've never actually heard any republicans objecting to the Queen on the grounds that she's German. She did marry a Greek, but if you're rich enough you can get away with that sort of thing and anyway republicans tend to be internationalist/cosmopolitan types. "The Queen is German" is a statement used to mock the ignorance of the likes of Britain First, UKIP and the National Front, who say immigrants should go home but are themselves descended from immigrants.
Nigel Farrago, for example, who is apparently descended from Huguenot refugees fleeing religious persecution.
If you go back far enough, everyone outside Africa is an immigrant. Some of us got to where we are more recently than others.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
OTOH, they kept on topping up the Breeding stock - Caroline of Ansbach, Augusta of Saxe-Gotha, Charlotte of Mecklenburg Strelitz, Caroline of Brunswick, Adelaide of Saxe-Meiningen, Albert of Saxe-Coburg. Later on they let in the odd Dane or Scot (but no one expected her to be Queen) - but that's a lot of German great grannies.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Jane R quote:
(of the Queen) ...She did marry a Greek...
Prince Philip Greek? Hmm.
His grandparents were:
- Danish - Prince George Christian of Denmark who was invited to become King of Greece
- Russian - his paternal grandmother was the niece of Tsar Alexander II
- Anglo-German - the first Marquess of Milford Haven was his maternal grandfather
- Anglo-German - Princess Victoria of Hesse, his maternal grandmother, was Queen Victoria's grand-daughter through VR's third child, Princess Alice
Far more interesting is the number of Philip's forebears who were high-ranking naval officers, including the man who reformed the Tsarist navy in Russia (and also responsible for freeing the serfs, Grand-Duke Konstantin Nicolaievich), the King responsible for the founding of the modern Greek navy (George I of the Hellenes) and the First Sea Lord of the UK - the Marquess of Milford Haven, Louis Mountbatten's father as well as Philip's grandfather.
[ 29. July 2016, 11:20: Message edited by: L'organist ]
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
In some places (even when skin colour matches) it can take 40 years for you to cease to be regarded as an offcomer.
Used to be like that in virtually every rural village up and down the Country in 1950.
When my parents moved to a farm in the West Country they were straight away approached by someone who asked "church or chapel?" They said neither. Consequently it wasn't as if they weren't accepted but probably fair to say never fully accepted.
That village, and many others like it are now dominated by outsiders with most chapels gone and churches hugely diminished.
Not very hellish, just sayin that's how people are, or were.
Just for the record I don't condone any rudeness or intimidation towards non- indigenous people post Brexit, nor before it for that matter.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by l'Organist:
quote:
Prince Philip Greek? Hmm.
He was born in Greece. His title at birth was Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark. His father was Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark. His uncle was King Constantine I of Greece. Philip was baptised into the Greek Orthodox church.
It's hardly a stretch to describe him as "Greek."
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
On the other hand, his family, the Glucksburgs had an interesting history. From Wikipedia...
quote:
The family came to the throne after the overthrow in 1862 of the first king of the independent Greek state, Otto of Bavaria. In a referendum, the Greeks elected Prince Alfred of the United Kingdom, the second son of Queen Victoria, as their new king, but the candidature was rejected by the Great Powers, who refused to permit any member of their respective royal families to ascend to the Greek throne. A search for other candidates ensued, and eventually, the Greeks offered the throne to Prince William of Denmark, the second son of the future King Christian IX, and younger brother of the new Princess of Wales and who was of the Danish Glücksburg Dynasty. He received six votes in the referendum, the Greek National Assembly proclaimed him king as George I, and he arrived in Greece in October 1863. George I would marry Grand Duchess Olga Constaninovna of Russia, and would have seven surviving children. After a reign of fifty years, George I was succeeded by his eldest son, Constantine I, who had married Princess Sophia of Prussia, a granddaughter of Queen Victoria and sister of Kaiser Wilhelm II, in 1913. In turn, all three of Constantine's sons, George II, Alexander and Paul, would occupy the throne.
Are any royals natives of their realms? (Though I think the Danes have unbroken descent from Gorm, back in the distant past.)
And one of their number was chosen to establish the new Norwegian royal family in 1913, since they hadn't got one at the time. But at least they were more closely related.
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by l'Organist:
quote:
Prince Philip Greek? Hmm.
He was born in Greece. His title at birth was Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark. His father was Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark. His uncle was King Constantine I of Greece. Philip was baptised into the Greek Orthodox church.
It's hardly a stretch to describe him as "Greek."
Still like that in my village - even after 40 years of incoming people still talk as being 'old villagers'
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I think I'm seeing it the other way round - if I was born in Greece with a title such as Prince of Greece, I'd be annoyed if someone quibbled that I wasn't really Greek.
[ 01. August 2016, 08:13: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I think I'm seeing it the other way round - if I was born in Greece with a title such as Prince of Greece, I'd be annoyed if someone quibbled that I wasn't really Greek.
On the other hand, after a fairly horrendous childhood of being shunted from pillar to post around English country houses of wider family, largely ignored by my father, a very troubled mother, and then dispatched to Gordonstoun, Dartmouth, and the Royal Navy (where I got shot at, a lot, by Britain's enemies), I think I'd be a little weary at 95 of people in the UK still flippantly suggesting I'm not one of them.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
One of my mother's cousins, who emigrated to Australia in the 1960s, posts a lot of "You can take the girl out of Scotland, but you can't take Scotland out of the girl" type memes on FB. Another today. Perhaps that's affected my thinking.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
betjemaniac: quote:
On the other hand, after a fairly horrendous childhood of being shunted from pillar to post around English country houses of wider family, largely ignored by my father, a very troubled mother, and then dispatched to Gordonstoun, Dartmouth, and the Royal Navy (where I got shot at, a lot, by Britain's enemies), I think I'd be a little weary at 95 of people in the UK still flippantly suggesting I'm not one of them.
Well, that's English parochialism for you. My daughter has had the school bullies yelling 'Go home' at her too. She is white British, was born in the same local hospital as they were... but doesn't speak with the same accent because her father and I are from elsewhere (though we both have family ties to Yorkshire, we don't have the regional accent).
Fortunately, as she *is* white British and has lived in the same village all her life, the wider implications of this insult sailed right over her head and she had a lot of fun mocking the bullies and saying how nice it would be to go home and miss the rest of the school day; they ended up looking rather foolish.
My husband is Scottish; born in Edinburgh, raised there until the age of 12, lost his accent as a result of moving to Kent for the rest of his childhoood because his father got a job in London. He finds it upsetting when people tell him he can't 'really' be Scottish because he doesn't have a Scottish accent.
Why do you think we have so many different accents? It's so everyone knows how to categorize us as soon as we open our mouths.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him,
The moment he talks he makes some other
Englishman despise him.
Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
This verbal class distinction by now should be antique.
Substitute English speaker, obviously.
Alan Jay Lerner and Frederick Loewe (with help from GBS)
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I think I'm seeing it the other way round - if I was born in Greece with a title such as Prince of Greece, I'd be annoyed if someone quibbled that I wasn't really Greek.
On the other hand, after a fairly horrendous childhood of being shunted from pillar to post around English country houses of wider family, largely ignored by my father, a very troubled mother, and then dispatched to Gordonstoun, Dartmouth, and the Royal Navy (where I got shot at, a lot, by Britain's enemies), I think I'd be a little weary at 95 of people in the UK still flippantly suggesting I'm not one of them.
I think the thing that is mildly amusing about the Royal Family is that they are basically a different version of the Schroedinger's Immigrant gag. The original joke, was that Schroedinger's Immigrant is simultaneously over here to steal our jobs and to claim benefits. The Royal version is that members of the Royal Family are simultaneously part of the apex of British patriotism and hail from abroad, or have foreign backgrounds, and that the sort of people who take British patriotism a bit too seriously would, ordinarily, object to. And you can cough to enjoying the joke because, let's face it, as marginalised immigrants go the Royal Family are probably not high on the list of people who are going to get a brick through their window. With Prince Philip, it is particularly amusing because he is the guy your racist uncle would object to, in any other walk of life, whilst, simultaneously, being your racist uncle.
He's also a brave man, and a patriot, and has been for many years a mainstay of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II in her many years of dedicated public service. And, I remember him being present at a very moving ceremony honouring one of his family as one of the righteous Gentiles. What can I say? People are complicated and life is complicated. And part of being British is the capacity to simultaneously like someone and to take the piss unmercifully.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Callan, that would have been his mother. Having come through her troubles (using the word in a post above) during the 30s, she remained in Greece during WW II, living in a house on the outskirts of Athens in the same poverty as her neighbours, and sheltered some Jewish people from persecution. I can't now remember how many she took care of, but to do so at all would have involved considerable bravery. During the late 40s/early 50s, she established a small religious community. She is remembered as one of the Righteous among Nation, and from memory also on the Orthodox calendar.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re Prince Phillip:
(tangent)
When Charles and Diana married, P was the only one who looked happy. The couple were terrified; and Herself seemed decidedly not amused.
That's neither here nor there, really. But when it happened, some friends and I had a TV watching party (way over the Pond), and Phillip's joy made an impression on me--partly because, as I'd seen in news over the years, he usually looked so dour.
(No offense to anyone intended.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Prince Phillip:
(tangent)
When Charles and Diana married, P was the only one who looked happy. The couple were terrified; and Herself seemed decidedly not amused.
That's neither here nor there, really. But when it happened, some friends and I had a TV watching party (way over the Pond), and Phillip's joy made an impression on me--partly because, as I'd seen in news over the years, he usually looked so dour.
(No offense to anyone intended.)
IIRC, and I've got no idea where I picked up this gem, during the divorce Philip was the only one who kept open channels of communication with Diana, and continued to correspond with her up to her death.
Allegedly, when Edward left the Royal Marines during training, it was Philip who he was most scared of telling, but who he found his surprise was the most supportive and understanding.
There is a reading of the Windsor narrative that presents Philip as the one who has quietly held the family together behind the scenes, away from the "Royal" side of things. I can only imagine that, if he were to go first, the effect on the Queen would be absolutely devastating.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
As we pass six weeks post Brexit I was just wondering if there was any sign of doom-laden prophesies, which abounded prior to June 23rd, having come to pass.
We did get a penny rise on the fuel which duly disappeared again after couple weeks. Misses says there have been no price rises in the shops as far as she can tell.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
That is largely because none of the policy implications of Brexit have yet been implemented. The UK hasn't even got around to invoking Article 50 yet, to start the process.
In the meantime, things like bars on property fund withdrawals, implemented due to a spate of post-vote withdrawals, remain in place and are likely to do so for some time yet.
In other words, the immediate effects are slight, but the uncertainty hasn't gone away and will do long-term damage, let alone the actual implementation of Brexit.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Or, since this is Hell, it's like taking the view on October 15, 1939 that WW2 won't amount to much.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
So far
Interest rates halved.
Massive injection of virtual money
Pound down 10% against dollar
Pound down against every nation we import from
Academics frozen out of international projects
EU funded projects frozen
Huge spike in hate crimes
Halt in investment
Jobs market grinds to a halt
House building ditto
Economy shrinking
But apart from that, nothing.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That is largely because none of the policy implications of Brexit have yet been implemented. The UK hasn't even got around to invoking Article 50 yet, to start the process.
And it won't. The PM wants the post-EU trade arrangements sorted out before we start talking about leaving, because she is well aware that invoking Article 50 will FUBAR any ongoing trade negotiations.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So far
Interest rates halved.
Massive injection of virtual money
Pound down 10% against dollar
Pound down against every nation we import from
Academics frozen out of international projects
EU funded projects frozen
Huge spike in hate crimes
Halt in investment
Jobs market grinds to a halt
House building ditto
Economy shrinking
But apart from that, nothing.
To add to that nothing, an increase in hate crimes.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Maybe a more interesting question is how the rest of Europe is benefiting from Brexit.
There must be lots of scientists, artists and businessmen flocking back home from London in disgust!
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Or, since this is Hell, it's like taking the view on October 15, 1939 that WW2 won't amount to much.
This analogy works insomuch as the public were bombarded with fear.
People knew that a Second war would involve air attacks on civilian areas so when nothing happened for nearly a year the term 'Phoney War' was coined. Like myself here, a little mischievous mocking of fear-mongering.
But as we know the bombs did come. This though is somewhat different in that it is all about trade and business. Risk yes. Business, like politics is a rough, and sometimes dirty affair.
I shall continue keep a wary eye on the consequences of Brexit, and see if Doc Tor's no doubt challengable list grows. In the meantime I see no reason to dig a hole in the garden just yet.
The rise in hate crime is regrettable, there is no excusing that. However as I recall the 05 London suicide attacks caused a 600% increase in hate crime, not that two wrongs make a right.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Doc Tor's no doubt challengeable list
Go on, then. Knock yourself out.
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Forward the New Republic
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Doc Tor's no doubt challengeable list
Go on, then. Knock yourself out.
Can't be arsed to do a 'link war' DT, (coupled with the fact I don,t know how).
But let's try one hit for the hell of it. The pound losing strength.
Well it's an ill wind that blows no one any good. For many years a strong pound has fucked up Farmgate prices.
Even if we forget those poor struggling farmers for a moment, with their inflated land prices and and massive machinery. Someone known to me who works in a large multinational raw product industry, not far from here, had a bod come round prior to June 23rd urging the whole workforce to vote Leave. For the simply reason it would weaken the pound and make their exports more profitable.
So there are a couple satisfied customers. Although my guess is the farmers won't get the sustained handouts from government which they have enjoyed from Brussels for decades. Might make them a candidate for your list in 4 years time.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
I work with a Brexiter, a nasty little shit if ever there was one. She is also a member of the young farmers and her desire is to work in the famring industry long term. Day after day, we are treated to little asides as to how great it is that we voted leave, comments usually sourced from the Daily Mail. I only hope she is ultimately proved right but for the now, I wish she would shut the fuck right up.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Doc Tor's no doubt challengeable list
Go on, then. Knock yourself out.
Can't be arsed to do a 'link war' DT
Yes, because you'll hold your opinion entirely untrammelled by annoying facts.
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Forward the New Republic
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
because you'll hold your opinion entirely untrammelled by annoying facts.
Not an opinion Sire, an observation based on my own eyes and ears. If your list holds up to scrutiny, grows longer and things really do start to go tits up in a year or so then I'll take my share of the blame at having voted Leave.
It does though pain me to point out that at this stage, and in the mind of the general public, the only thing that appears shafted by the In/out Referendum is the Labour Party. But hey, if the economy is well and truly fucked come 2020 then......who knows?
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The Labour Party have committed an act of political suicide. But, it's been on the cards since Corbyn was elected - essentially a result of two radically different groups within the party; one that sees electoral success through appealing to the left, the other to the centre. Corbyn has had the overwhelming support of Labour members since his election, and the underwhelming minority of MPs. To too many Labour MPs, Corbyn couldn't do anything right and his position of "I'm not a fan of the EU but we're better in than out" (which, to me seems close to the majority of the population - the EU has some pros, some cons and the referendum result suggests cons slightly outweighed pros) is just an excuse for his opponents to challenge him. If there had been no referendum, they'd have found something else to rip the party apart over.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
because you'll hold your opinion entirely untrammelled by annoying facts.
Not an opinion Sire, an observation based on my own eyes and ears.
That the pound has decreased in value against the dollar is something you've witnessed with your own eyes and ears? My, aren't you special?
I think what you're trying to say is that effect of that on the economy is mixed. On one hand, primary producers who sell on the export market will enjoy a boost. On the other, everybody else including those primary producers will find that imports - stuff like machinery, fuel, clothing, timber, steel and everything we can't grow or can't be arsed to pick - will have gone up.
Apologies for getting technical. The farmers would be fucked if it hadn't been for the government taking money from the £350m a week NHS fund (remember that?) to replace the CAP.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
But, the government has only committed to that for a year or two at most. Anyone want to lay bets on the amount the UK government pays to farmers falling rapidly behind the CAP payments to farmers in the EU after 2020?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
It's important for everyone to remember that farming is a subsidised private industry, in a way that is only second to the banking sector. Tax-payers money, shovelled wholesale in the coffers of some of the richest people in the land.
(not to say there aren't a lot of poor and middle-income farmers - just that the biggest payments go to the very wealthiest landowners and corporations)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
The rise in hate crime is regrettable, there is no excusing that. However as I recall the 05 London suicide attacks caused a 600% increase in hate crime, not that two wrongs make a right.
I don't get your point.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The point seems to be that
a) there have been other occasions when the number of hate crimes has increased
b) therefore, the current increase in the number of hate crimes need not be related to the Brexit vote.
Which is, of course, bollocks. It's an argument that ignores the circumstances of the post 2005 terror attacks, in which there was a perception of parts of the Muslim community seeking to attack British life - of course that part of the Muslim community is miniscule, and retaliation is not justified, but the rise in hate crime had an identified cause.
It's also an argument that ignores the frequency of Brexit language in more recent hate crimes, the documented cases of phrases like "we won" in racist attacks.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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