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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
Last year I went somewhere that had evening prayer around four or fivish and then the liturgy and hour or so after that. Working off of a not perfect memory. I remember it was late enough that I was able to leave work a little early and then make it across the Bay.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
so as people who couldn't get off work can still gather for prayer. A former parish of mine took the opposite approach: Stations of the Cross followed by confessions at the traditional hour, and then the liturgy in the evening.
My former parish in Leeds did the Solemn Liturgy at 7.30pm because it's a working day.
I wish there would be at least one church in each city that did that. Here, they are all around 2 or 3pm.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
In the RCC, the Good Friday liturgy is supposed to be celebrated around 3PM, but "if pastoral circumstances suggest..." (I'm not a fan of that expression, as it ends up getting twisted to justify just about anything), it may be celebrated anytime between noon and early evening. It may not be celebrated in the morning.
I thought that for RCs, the Good Friday liturgy replaced Vespers, so 2pm is far too early and 3 pm the earliest
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
We generally have it at 7. That allows for us to have a choir (who are all working people with day jobs) and for parishioners to actually make it to the service, as well (which is a full-on Good Friday Liturgy with the Altar Service, Solemn Collects, Veneration of the Cross & Communion from the Reserved Sacrament).
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I thought that for RCs, the Good Friday liturgy replaced Vespers, so 2pm is far too early and 3 pm the earliest
You're right that vespers is not said by those who participate in the passion celebration, but that's not because the times would clash.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
We generally have it at 7. That allows for us to have a choir (who are all working people with day jobs) and for parishioners to actually make it to the service, as well (which is a full-on Good Friday Liturgy with the Altar Service, Solemn Collects, Veneration of the Cross & Communion from the Reserved Sacrament).
Ah yes. Thanks!
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
When I was growing up the routine was - 9am Stations of the Cross
- 12 noon Solemn Good Friday Liturgy
- 6pm Compline
The 3 hours, of course, contained Matins, Ante Communion and Evensong. I seem to recall singing Bairstow's Lamentation as well as John of Portugal's Crux fidelis.
In my present place we'll have a series of readings, motets and hymns from 2-3pm and, if previous years give an indication, most of the congregation will be conspicuous by their absence - Easter in our neck of the woods (meaning Friday-Monday) being the most important weekend of the year to exercise the powered gardening tools.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Conrad Noel:
I was asked the other day about liturgical change in Anglican cathedrals. I am very out of date and couldn't give a good answer.
Are there any Anglican cathedrals where the old High Altar is use exclusively for the sung/choral Eucharist on Sundays and there are no new altars and choir stalls on the nave-side of the choir screen ? In other words, are there any cathedrals which look and work as they did in the late 1950s/1960s ?
This may be slightly anomalous, but Bradford's mediaeval nave was extended Eastwards in the early 1960s to make it feel rather more Cathedral-esque in scale. The resulting High Altar, behind the choir, is used for Sunday morning Eucharists.
It's visible on the photos here: Bradford Cathedral website
It works fairly well I think; much better in term of liturgical unity of space than the hodgepodge one often sees of 1880s altar either cemented to the wall or precariously pulled out, the whole array being hid behind a 1980s coffee table anyway!
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Thanks, everyone. I'm off to Heaven to ask for good recipes for crow. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
For various reasons, our GF Liturgy has been at 11am for the past few years (i.e. ending at around noon), and this seems to have worked for us. However, this year, we have our Diocesan Bishop as guest preacher, so, to accommodate him (he is attending two other services in our Deanery on Good Friday!), we have put it forward to 10am. This seems a bit early to me, but somewhen about 130pm - 3pm seems more appropriate. YMMV.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
"kiddiwinkles crucify him" sounds fun. Action choruses and all that? Special new lyrics for 'If I had a hammer'?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Station of the Cross for children is what I've known.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I need a liturgy to bless and light the Paschal candle on Easter morning. We have no Vigil service, so it will need to be at the main service on Easter Day. I've checked several prayer books, including the New Zealand BCP, the SEC's '28 BCP, CofE's CW and ASB, and TEC's BCP and Enriching Our Worship. Google is being unhelpful as well.
Any pointers? Would I be horribly wrong to take the collect from TEC's Vigil rite and tweak it ever so slightly and use that? (The tweak would be to change "Sanctify this new fire..." to "Sanctify this new light...", since we're also not doing a bonfire.)
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
Try here. The vigil service tells you how to mark and bless your paschal candle (SEC, 1967 for those who wish to know).
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
Barefoot F:
I think your instinct about adapting the TEC blessing prayer as you suggest is a good one. If you want to do something a bit more elaborate you could add the final section of the Exsultet (sung or said) which begins (I may not be quoting quite correctly) 'May the Daystar find it ever burning...' which would seem appropriate to the morning, and leave out all the 'night verily blessed' material.
Purists might squirm and moan, but the Exsultet has been chopped and changed around so much over the years that I wouldn't feel bashful about it at all.
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Thank you, Kingsfold and Georgiaboy. I think this answers my question.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
A church I attend has removed the Passion element completely from its observance of Palm Sunday, so the whole service will focus on the Entry into Jerusalem.
I imagine there may be lively opinions on this (!), but can anybody point me to a source that shows the Passion element (in particular the reading of the Passion Gospel) was clearly part of the rite from earliest times? If not most ancient, when did it begin? (I know there was a time when there were two Masses, a Palm Mass followed by a procession, concluding with a Mass including the Passion Gospel.) With deepest respect to our Orthodox brethren, I am especially interested in Western developments. Any thoughts welcome.
(I know, I know, in a situation where only a minority attend on Good Friday, it is a pastoral and theological disaster to go from palms to resurrection on succeeding Sundays! I'm not in charge - right? Thank you.) ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I can't lay my hands on my copy of Egeria, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't passion reading there.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
A Companion to Common Worship Volume 2 ed. Bradshaw (SPCK 2006) states "The Roman observance of Palm Sunday originally had the singing of the Passion as the central feature".
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
As is often the case, the Catholic Encyclopedia entry is instructive if you can put up with the verbiage:
quote:
In the three oldest Roman Sacramentaries no mention is found of either the benediction of the palms or the procession. . . . The name Dominica in palmis, De passione Domini occurs in the "Gelasianum", but only as a superscription; and Probst ("Sacramentarien und Ordines", Münster, 1892, 202) is probably correct in suspecting . . . De passione Domini [to be] the original inscription. . . .
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I can't lay my hands on my copy of Egeria, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't passion reading there.
Egeria herself doesn't mention the Passion on 'The Day of Palms'. She only mentions it on Good Friday.
However, John Wilkinson, who wrote 'Egeria's Travels' said that the 5th Century Armenian lectionary shows the direction in which Cyril's Jerusalem church was travelling. That lectionary in listed in the book and, on p. 266, lists Matthew's passion narrative for Palm Sunday.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Not a question but a note of this new book from Canterbury Press.
An inclusive edition with some drawings of various vestments on women priests!
Church Linen, Vestments and Textiles
A Practical Guide to Their Use and Care
Author(s): Margery Roberts, Nicholas Elder, Christopher Chessun
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
If offeriad's parish are good MOTR C of E, they should look at their foundation documents. The BCP never calls the Sunday before Easter "Palm Sunday" and the gospel is the passion according to St Matthew.
Palm Sunday processions of course are the thin edge of the wedge of course....
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
When we do Stations of the Cross during Lent, I usually light a white votive by each one - OL&SJC is present in each. This year, we are to hold it at 12.30 on Good Friday, leading up to An Hour At The Cross - so no candles, I think, 'cos we put them all out last night? What thinkest thou?
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
No candles.
IMO only unbleached candles should be used in Holy Week apart from at the Maundy Thursday mass.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Christos Anesti Shipmates.
Does anyone know where the following words come from?
quote:
This is the table, not of the Church, but of the Lord.
It is to be made ready for those who love him and who want to love him more.
So, come, you who have much faith and you who have little, you who have been here often and you who have not been for a long time, you who have tried to follow and you who have failed.
Come, not because it is I who invite you: it is our Lord.
It is his will that those who want him should meet him here.
I thought they were rather good, but can't trace any source. I googled an extract from them, which gave several instances, in various different countries, but all of them appear to have got them from somewhere else.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yes John Hunters Invitation to Communion. I have Blogged about it giving the original. A very significant bit of liturgical innovation.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
It is included in the Baptist worship book "Gathering for Worship", in more than one setting of Communion.
I use it often, but I doubt if many other Baptist ministers do.
Here is another Invitation, somewhat similar:
Here is the table of the Lord,
we are gathered to his supper,
a foretaste of things eternal.
Come, when you are fearful,
to be made new in love.
Come, when you are doubtful,
to be made strong in faith.
Come, when you are regretful,
and be made whole.
Come, old and young,
there is room for all.
[ 05. April 2015, 13:02: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Wow, Jengie, many thanks. I posted a question and got an answer in less than half an hour.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
In our Anglican place, back in the day when women were not permitted in the surpliced choir, anecdotally they were seated conveniently in the adjacent chapel so that they could contribute to the singing without upsetting anyone's sensibilities.
I've now discovered something apparently similar elsewhere, such as here. I wonder if it was at all common? It reminds me of early deaconesses preaching from the chancel step because they were denied the place of teaching authority in the pulpit.
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
In our Anglican place, back in the day when women were not permitted in the surpliced choir, anecdotally they were seated conveniently in the adjacent chapel so that they could contribute to the singing without upsetting anyone's sensibilities.
I've now discovered something apparently similar elsewhere, such as here. I wonder if it was at all common? It reminds me of early deaconesses preaching from the chancel step because they were denied the place of teaching authority in the pulpit.
I saw this in Wantage Parish Church about 35 years ago - men in cottas in the stalls and women in a chapel beyong the rood screen.
It was all birettas and English Missal back then. (Ss Peter & Paul)
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
Does anyone other than Anglicans use the Easter Anthems?
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Does anyone other than Anglicans use the Easter Anthems?
Do even Anglicans use the Easter Anthems any more??? Not that many, I suspect.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Does anyone other than Anglicans use the Easter Anthems?
Well - I think they may be an Anglican construct although I don't know but the verses do come I think from various parts of Scripture
I don't know how many churches use it but in my part of Cambria we always have used them and not given them up usually in the position of the psalm
I suppose they could be used as an anthem (!) at Evensong, in fact that could be done by a church with thin reserves as far as the choir is concerned
I do like them actually!
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Does anyone other than Anglicans use the Easter Anthems?
Do even Anglicans use the Easter Anthems any more??? Not that many, I suspect.
Anyone in the SEC following the order for Morning Prayer on the website will be:
http://www.scotland.anglican.org/morning-prayer-wednesday-8-april-2015/
So, yes, probably not that many. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 08. April 2015, 19:40: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
... Does anyone know where the following words come from?
quote:
This is the table, not of the Church, but of the Lord.
It is to be made ready for those who love him and who want to love him more.
So, come, you who have much faith and you who have little, you who have been here often and you who have not been for a long time, you who have tried to follow and you who have failed.
Come, not because it is I who invite you: it is our Lord.
It is his will that those who want him should meet him here.
...
Jengie, quite by chance, this afternoon, I came upon these words which are apparently from St John Chrysostom's Paschal Homily. Do you think there any possibility John Hunter might have been influenced by it?
quote:
If anyone is devout and a lover of God, let them enjoy this beautiful and radiant festival.
If anyone is a grateful servant, let them, rejoicing, enter into the joy of his Lord.
If anyone has wearied themselves in fasting, let them now receive recompense.
If anyone has laboured from the first hour, let them today receive the just reward.
If anyone has come at the third hour, with thanksgiving let them feast.
If anyone has arrived at the sixth hour, let them have no misgivings; for they shall suffer no loss.
If anyone has delayed until the ninth hour, let them draw near without hesitation.
If anyone has arrived even at the eleventh hour, let them not fear on account of tardiness.
For the Master is gracious and receives the last even as the first; He gives rest to him that comes at the eleventh hour, just as to him who has laboured from the first.
He has mercy upon the last and cares for the first; to the one He gives, and to the other He is gracious.
He both honours the work and praises the intention.
Enter all of you, therefore, into the joy of our Lord, and, whether first or last, receive your reward. ....
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I would have thought that St John C would not have thought that there was any tension between being the table of the Lord and the table of the church.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Re the Easter Anthems, we use them at daily Morning Prayer during Eastertide (as per the Franciscan Office, but they're in Common Worship as well, IIRC), and also at Matins (BCP) on Easter Sunday and on Low Sunday.
None of these services have more than 6 or 7 peeps at each, though....
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yes
The study of Liturgy started in the mid 19th Century in Scotland (so much so that the CofS Liturgical Society was founded in 1865. He is known to have used other ancient sources but unattributed. The Reformed traditions approach to liturgical studies is both scholarly and very much shaped by the need to produce fresh liturgy for Sunday. For a Congregational minister, interested in liturgy, coming such a text while working in Scotland would make the adaptation almost inevitable.
There was in the US in 19th Century is a very Catholic form of Reformed Theology. I know of scholars who believe that fueled the interest in liturgy.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Re the Easter Anthems, we use them at daily Morning Prayer during Eastertide (as per the Franciscan Office, but they're in Common Worship as well, IIRC), and also at Matins (BCP) on Easter Sunday and on Low Sunday.
None of these services have more than 6 or 7 peeps at each, though....
Ian J.
We used them at the Easter Sunday morning Choral Eucharist but I've had a little look round and it doesn't seem to be as common as I thought
Hereford Cathedral used them at Choral Mattins on Easter Sunday ( yes Mattins still survives in some places!)from what I can see
I think but do not know that they're more closely associated with the Offices rather than the Eucharist so perhaps we're a bit unusual but on the other hand using them at the Eucharist does mean that they are sung when there's a decent congregation I suppose.......
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Entirely appropriate at any Eastertide Eucharist, IMHO.....
(...and they make a welcome change from the Venite.......whyever did ++Cranmer insist on saying it every blessed day?)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
(...and they make a welcome change from the Venite.......whyever did ++Cranmer insist on saying it every blessed day?)
Ian J.
Heresy!
(You're not wrong, though.)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Entirely appropriate at any Eastertide Eucharist, IMHO.....
(...and they make a welcome change from the Venite.......whyever did ++Cranmer insist on saying it every blessed day?)
Ian J.
Because he inherited the medoeval Roman Catholic office which always, daily, had the Venite as the 'invitorium' for the first office of the day - and still does.
Benedeictus and Magnificat are also said daily.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Thanks, leo - I didn't know that about the Venite (I realise the Gospel Canticles are for daily use, of course - we say the Benedictus every morning...).
Ian J. (aka Heretic Of This Parish)
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Yes
The study of Liturgy started in the mid 19th Century in Scotland (so much so that the CofS Liturgical Society was founded in 1865. He is known to have used other ancient sources but unattributed. The Reformed traditions approach to liturgical studies is both scholarly and very much shaped by the need to produce fresh liturgy for Sunday. For a Congregational minister, interested in liturgy, coming such a text while working in Scotland would make the adaptation almost inevitable.
There was in the US in 19th Century is a very Catholic form of Reformed Theology. I know of scholars who believe that fueled the interest in liturgy.
Jengie
Thank you for that. It's really interesting, and something I wasn't properly aware of.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
A friend has asked if I will take a wedding for some mates of his. They want a Christian service, but not in church. You can get married in all sorts of places by a registrar; are there limits on where a priest can conduct a service?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I can't answer that ... but there's nothing to stop them having a civil ceremony with the Registrar (to do the "legal" bit) and then have you marry them "properly" (i.e. in a Christian ceremony, but with no legal significance).
That is of course the norm in many countries, anyway.
[ 11. April 2015, 21:58: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
You can get married in all sorts of places by a registrar; are there limits on where a priest can conduct a service?
A C of E priest? I rather think that an actual marriage outside a parish church would require a Special Licence. Whilst in principle one could be granted for a wedding in a hotel or whatever, it seems rather unlikely.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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