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Source: (consider it) Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
Angloid
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I don't see why not. Of course, as soon as you insert any additional matter into a Prayer Book service, it becomes by definition a non-proper one!

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Pomona
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An American Episcopalian friend has mentioned to me attending a new church where the norm is to receive Communion straight on the tongue (the usual for him is intinction). I have never heard of any Anglican doing this before! How common is this in TEC? My great-aunt (RC) still receives the Eucharist in this way but she's the only one in her church who does so. Another American Episcopalian friend sometimes attends a Latin Mass at an Episcopalian church in LA. How normal are pre-Vatican II RC practices in TEC?

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
An American Episcopalian friend has mentioned to me attending a new church where the norm is to receive Communion straight on the tongue (the usual for him is intinction). I have never heard of any Anglican doing this before!

Not TEC, but a couple of years ago it was the norm in Pusey House for a while (norms obviously change with the students). I received in the hand and was an outlier.

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*Leon*
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I don't see why not. Of course, as soon as you insert any additional matter into a Prayer Book service, it becomes by definition a non-proper one!

Presumably a prayer book evensong with holy communion bolted on could be described as a legitimate variant on a service of the word with holy communion.

Of course, if you're trying to preserve a local tradition of never doing service of the word with holy communion, this could be an unacceptably dangerous precedent.

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
An American Episcopalian friend has mentioned to me attending a new church where the norm is to receive Communion straight on the tongue (the usual for him is intinction). I have never heard of any Anglican doing this before!

Which, intinction or on the tongue? Both are unusual in Anglican churches IME, though the latter less so. (In my previous diocese, self-intinction was verboten for sanitary reasons).

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Another American Episcopalian friend sometimes attends a Latin Mass at an Episcopalian church in LA. How normal are pre-Vatican II RC practices in TEC?

NB the Episcopal Latin Masses in California (SF and LA) are not pre-Vatican II: they use the 1979 Book of Common Prayer. I assume this is what your friend goes to.

[ 04. December 2014, 13:51: Message edited by: Knopwood ]

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
An American Episcopalian friend has mentioned to me attending a new church where the norm is to receive Communion straight on the tongue (the usual for him is intinction). I have never heard of any Anglican doing this before! How common is this in TEC? My great-aunt (RC) still receives the Eucharist in this way but she's the only one in her church who does so. Another American Episcopalian friend sometimes attends a Latin Mass at an Episcopalian church in LA. How normal are pre-Vatican II RC practices in TEC?

Not TEC, but a Continuing church in the US--and a number of people in my parish receive on the tongue, as do I whenever I attend a Mass at which I'm not celebrating. It's uncommon, but not unusual.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
An American Episcopalian friend has mentioned to me attending a new church where the norm is to receive Communion straight on the tongue (the usual for him is intinction). I have never heard of any Anglican doing this before!

Not TEC, but a couple of years ago it was the norm in Pusey House for a while (norms obviously change with the students). I received in the hand and was an outlier.
Pretty much the norm in many anglo-cathoolic churches until the advent of swine flu

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venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:

I act as secretary for the local Cemetery Committee, whose meetings are held in turn at the eight churches who use the two Anglican cemeteries in the city, and this evening we met at a church where the vicar is, shall we say, a member of the Nice Brigade™. When we concluded the meeting with the Grace, she said, "At St. Saccharine's* we hold hands and look at each other when we say the Grace".

I did, because it would have been rude not to, but boy, was I ever out of my comfort zone ... [Eek!]



I've heard it here that it is standard practice with some American Baptists.

Looking round with daggers at all concerned or a superior sneer may be tempting, but even less polite. The instruction should be "we hold hands and look round with a vacuous and patronising smile."

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
An American Episcopalian friend has mentioned to me attending a new church where the norm is to receive Communion straight on the tongue (the usual for him is intinction). I have never heard of any Anglican doing this before!

Which, intinction or on the tongue? Both are unusual in Anglican churches IME, though the latter less so. (In my previous diocese, self-intinction was verboten for sanitary reasons).

quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Another American Episcopalian friend sometimes attends a Latin Mass at an Episcopalian church in LA. How normal are pre-Vatican II RC practices in TEC?

NB the Episcopal Latin Masses in California (SF and LA) are not pre-Vatican II: they use the 1979 Book of Common Prayer. I assume this is what your friend goes to.

Sorry, I meant on the tongue (that sounds a little odd out of context!). Intinction is uncommon in UK Anglican churches but was the norm when swine flu broke out. Friend's church is in North Carolina if that helps. Also that is interesting about the Episcopal Latin Masses - I had no idea that was an option for any BCP (the 1662 BCP not having a Latin Mass for obvious reasons!.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Also that is interesting about the Episcopal Latin Masses - I had no idea that was an option for any BCP (the 1662 BCP not having a Latin Mass for obvious reasons!.

Actually, there has been an authorised and legal translation of the 1662 BCP for rather a long time.

When I was an undergraduate at Cambridge, a college dean I knew fairly well regularly said morning prayer in Latin. I went once or twice and, though I didn't catch every word, it was rather lovely. Never been to a BCP Latin mass, though.

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venbede
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The University of Oxford had the BCP in Latin, and certainly 30 years ago there was one service a term in the University Church of St Mary (one of the few C of E churches to have had a former vicar recently beatified).

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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venbede
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Crossed post with Basilica. I wonder what the Long Exhortation was like in Latin?

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
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Zoey

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Background - attended CofE in childhood, never got confirmed or took communion, no regular church attendance for a number of years after reaching adulthood, have relatively recently started attending church regularly enough for the vicar to have noticed that I go up for blessing not communion and to have asked if I want to be confirmed.

I have some vague, hazy, half-recollection about rules / strong guidance that one should not take communion unless at peace with one's brothers and sisters in Christ or ... something. (Also maybe something about if you're at the communion rail and remember that you're in the middle of a dispute, to go and sort it out before coming back to take communion in the right frame of mind?)

Can somebody point me to a document which states this point in the proper wording? I don't think it's a complete figment of my imagination, although that's always possible. So far all my googlefu has turned up is this - https://www.churchofengland.org/prayer-worship/worship/book-of-common-prayer/the-lord%27s-supper-or-holy-communion.aspx - which seems much easier to comply with than my hazy, half-memories suggested was the case for the rules / guidance about taking communion. (In other words, I think genuinely not being in malicious or open contention with one's neighbours is a significantly easier ask than genuinely being at peace with all one's fellow Christians.)

Apologies for possible garbled-ness of this question.

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Fr Weber
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The Exhortation mentions being in perfect charity with all men as a prerequisite, and the Invitation to Confession also plays on this theme : "Ye...that are in love and charity with your neighbors..." What you cite seems to be an interpretation or amplification of what the BCP service suggests.

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--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Jengie jon

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You mean apart from Matthew 5:23? This is interpreted as a prohibition of receiving communion/eucharist/mass when you are at odds with fellow Christians.

Jengie

[ 04. December 2014, 19:32: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
3 purple, 1 pink and 1 white in the centre for us.

We don't run to rose vestments for Gaudete Sunday. By the time you have stoles, copes, and cinctures, then a frontal and matching paraments, you're looking at a decent sum of money - too much to justify.

We have a rose set for Lent IV and Advent III, but they're of noticeably lower quality than our other vestment sets. Fine with me, really, considering that they only get used twice a year (even our black set, sadly, seems to receive more use).

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Invitation to Confession also plays on this theme : "Ye...that are in love and charity with your neighbors..." .

Neighbours, for goodness' sake.


"Ye that do truly and earnestly repent you of your sins, and are in love and charity with your neighbours, and intend to lead a new life, following the commandments of God, and walking from henceforth in his holy ways; hold hands with them and gaze at them with a self-satisfied and sentimental smirk and make your humble confession to Almighty God complacently sitting on your bottom."

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
An American Episcopalian friend has mentioned to me attending a new church where the norm is to receive Communion straight on the tongue (the usual for him is intinction). I have never heard of any Anglican doing this before!

Not TEC, but a couple of years ago it was the norm in Pusey House for a while (norms obviously change with the students). I received in the hand and was an outlier.
Pretty much the norm in many anglo-catholic churches until the advent of swine flu
That may have been the case in the spikiest of anglo-papalist circles. Nevertheless, I was confirmed over fifty years ago. I have received regularly in low to middle to average high over the years in England, Wales and elsewhere. I do not recall having ever seen anyone receive communion directly onto the tongue outside the RCC.

What I was taught then, and have always believed to be the normal practice in England, is that one places one hand over the other in the form of a cross. The bread, whether ordinary wheaten or unleavened wafer, is then placed directly into the middle of the uppermost palm.

Perhaps one shouldn't say this. I know it depends what you are used to. But to an 'ordinary' CofE person, seeing people stick their tongues out and have the bread placed upon it does look a bit odd, neither reverent nor hygienic.

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Angloid
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I remember visiting the Shrine at Walsingham back in the dark ages, when it was impossible to receive on the hand. IIRC you had to hold a cloth under your chin as the priest administered the host.

It is still a fairly common, but by no means universal, Anglo-catholic practice. But since many (in some places, most) Roman Catholics now receive in the hand it tends to be the older or more conservative people who do this. Like Enoch, I have rarely seen anyone receive in this way in MOTR or more moderate A-C places.

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The Silent Acolyte

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In English, it's called a housling cloth. I last saw one used in the mid-'00s in the Catholic cathedral in Shanghai.

For the record, venbede, unless you were taking the piss, it's neighbors in the American 1979 BCP.

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Ceremoniar
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Wow, when I was an Episcopalian (30+ years ago), many, if not most, Anglo-Catholics received on the tongue. It surprised me that anyone would be surprised by seeing this.
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Knopwood
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I often receive on the tongue, and often don't. It isn't really something I think about. When I was being prepared for first communion as an RC, we were taught two options. One was on the tongue, the other was on the hand in what I would now understand to be the "wrong" way: left hand on top, then pick It up with the right hand and pop into your mouth. The latter was just too confusing me, so I tended to stick with the tongue.

In Anglican churches, people generally receive on the hand as described in the St Augustine Prayer Book: right hand on top to make a "throne" and then bring both directly to the mouth. That doesn't mix me up as much so I float pretty freely between the two now.

I did visit our neighbouring (pace TSA) Lutheran parish for Reformation Sunday and planned to receive in the hand until I saw another man in the circle do on-the-tongue and was satisfied I wouldn't be some Anglican outlier!

[ 05. December 2014, 02:11: Message edited by: Knopwood ]

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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Being brought up a pre-Vatican II Catholic, we always received on the tongue, with the altar boy holding a paten under our chin.

In the Episcopal Church my experience has been that we almost always receive on the hand, except if we want to intinct and self-intinction isn't the practice.

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Knopwood
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Curiously, since moving to Québec I've noticed that the practice in my local parish is that the priest intincts the host and places it on the communicant's tongue. When I was growing up (until I started attending Byzantine liturgies) receiving both species in any way was strictly for Holy Week.
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Barefoot Friar

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I think I'm reading this correctly. Holy Innocents falls on Sunday this year, and is thus transferred to the first available weekday. This is according to the American '79 BCP. Amirite?

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Knopwood
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Yes, those of us who use older books will get Childermas Sunday (I'm rather excited!) but the new kalendars will transfer it, although the 29 is St Thomas Becket.

Now, I'm not entirely familiar with 1979, but I know it's similar to our BAS, which allows for the feasts of Christ's "companions" to be celebrated on their traditional dates during Christmas or another (St Stephen on August 3, St John the Evangelist on May 6, and the Innocents on January 11). In the BAS, these "alternative" dates are actually the primary ones, and the permission for the old dates (except on a Sunday) is merely a rubric.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
to an 'ordinary' CofE person, seeing people stick their tongues out and have the bread placed upon it does look a bit odd, neither reverent nor hygienic.

to say nothing of a person I know who has a tongue piercing and regularly receives in this manner

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Knopwood
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Funnily enough, I recall going to Poland in my early teens and wanting to make a good impression. Assuming that the more complicated way must be the more formal one, I made sure to concentrate on getting the hands right and duly presented them to the priest. He shook his head and placed the host on my tongue instead. Apparently the dispensation for communion in the hand hasn't been extended by the Polish episcopal conference!
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JeffTL
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Here in Chicago it's not at all uncommon - especially at the explicitly Anglo-Catholic parishes but you see it elsewhere also. People carrying small children are especially likely to receive communion on the tongue for practical reasons.


At my parish you see about a 1:3 ratio of lingual to manual reception, with intinction both by communicants and chalice bearers (the latter of course culminating with receiving the intincted host on the tongue). At one mass it is customary to stand in a circle to receive the sacrament, and I'll receive on the tongue if my hands are occupied with a Prayer Book or some such (i.e. if we are using Prayer C or D and I need to know the responses). Otherwise I go either way; my only real scruple is that I don't self-intinct because I know that the chalice bearer has better control of the chalice than the communicant and is less likely to contaminate the Precious Blood or make a mess.

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Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known
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I'm Anglican, and I receive on the tongue.

To make sure that the priest administering the sacrament does it properly, I have to point to my mouth or gesticulate in some manner to get my point across. My priest (our cathedral's dean) has gotten used to it. Another priest mistook it for a sign that I wanted to receive an intincted wafer.

That said, I'm still in the minority.

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Pearl B4 Swine
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Confused.
Do you mean you wanted only a dry Host? As in, I'll have toast please, and hold the jelly?

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
I'm Anglican, and I receive on the tongue.

To make sure that the priest administering the sacrament does it properly, I have to point to my mouth or gesticulate in some manner to get my point across. My priest (our cathedral's dean) has gotten used to it. Another priest mistook it for a sign that I wanted to receive an intincted wafer.

That said, I'm still in the minority.

There is no sense in which 'does it properly' is correct. It is not the Anglican tradition. If defensible, that is only so as a 'thing indifferent'. There is no way in which it is more proper than receiving in the hand like everyone else.

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L'organist
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Theview used to be taken by some ex-Mirfield fathers that anglicans who received on the tongue fell into two categories: (a) ex RCs, and (b) exhibitionists.

Of course, I wouldn't take such a hard-and-fast line myself, but...

The Church of England way has always been to receive the wafer in the hand and bring the hand to the mouth.

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Magersfontein Lugg
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For various reasons a friend is having to choose the hymns for her church Sunday (Communion) services.

She asked if there are websites to help. Ideally ones that don't give too much of choice [Smile]

... thoughts?

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L'organist
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If the church is affiliated to the Royal School of Church Music then it should already be receiving copies of Sunday by Sunday, a publication which gives wide-ranging suggestions of music to fit in with the readings according to the CofE Common Worship lectionary and the Roman lectionary as well.

It gives hymns plus suggestions for motets, from unison simple things to 8 part difficult numbers by people like Part, etc. It even lists some organ music!

If she doesn't have access to that the the New English Hymnal gives basic choices for the Sundays of the year at the back of the book...

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Offeiriad

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Lots of ideas on The Text This Week website, but double check that the readings are the right ones: just occasionally the US readings are different from UK ones.
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Adam.

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With similar caveats, I'd suggest the Newman Hymnal, but the readings are Roman Lectionary and the music is American Catholic.

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If the church is affiliated to the Royal School of Church Music then it should already be receiving copies of Sunday by Sunday, a publication which gives wide-ranging suggestions of music to fit in with the readings according to the CofE Common Worship lectionary and the Roman lectionary as well.

It gives hymns plus suggestions for motets, from unison simple things to 8 part difficult numbers by people like Part, etc. It even lists some organ music!

If she doesn't have access to that the the New English Hymnal gives basic choices for the Sundays of the year at the back of the book...

Quite a lot of hymnbooks for use in churches which keep the Christian year have a Sunday by Sunday list at the back which, combined with the actual Sunday by Sunday, works reasonably well IME. If her church isn't RSCM affiliated she should persuade them to fork out forthwith or beg borrow or steal a copy.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Jengie jon

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Well why not use the Hymnsite as a starting point. If the church uses Roots then that too has hymns.

However the good old fashioned way of reading the readings and choosing the hymns to fit is tried, tested and reliable.

Jengie

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Basilica
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And, of course, you don't have to have every hymn exactly matching the assortment of readings for that day. You can have general hymns, not corresponding to anything in particular.

Lists like the RSCM's are all well and good, but they can be a bit overwhelming if they're used exclusively.

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gog
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The Singing the Faith plus site has hymns from the book for each Sunday almost now, might be possible to read them across to other books.
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Jengie jon

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Found this list and an English one (scroll down). There is also Hymnquest, if this is one off there is a thirty day demo but if not a lite version which does not contain copyright is also available.

Jengie

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Barefoot Friar

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# 13100

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In an Anglican context, is it appropriate to omit the prayer of confession and pardon when Holy Baptism has been celebrated? My thinking is that we just spent some time renouncing our sin and professing faith in Jesus Christ, so saying that prayer is redundant. The 1979 BCP is silent on the matter, except that "on occasion, the confession may be omitted."

[ 16. December 2014, 15:33: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
In an Anglican context, is it appropriate to omit the prayer of confession and pardon when Holy Baptism has been celebrated? My thinking is that we just spent some time renouncing our sin and professing faith in Jesus Christ, so saying that prayer is redundant. The 1979 BCP is silent on the matter, except that "on occasion, the confession may be omitted."

I would say not. The classical Anglican HC service includes not just a confession, but an absolution as well. Unless an absolution is expressly given in the ministration of Baptism (and I'm pretty sure it's not, not even in the 1979), the confession and absolution should still be said.

Also, I think that rubric from the 1979 is misguided (what occasion justifies omitting the confession?), but that's another argument...

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venbede
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The current C of E practice, (and as far as I remember through my adult life) is to omit the prayers of penitence and the creed when there is a baptism. (Before 2000 the intercessions got omitted as well.)

With the BCP, no, as Baptism and Holy Communion are seperate services.

My question is this:

In the Eastern churches is the eucharistic prayer called and pronounced "AnAphora" or "AnaPHORa"? Which syllable gets the stress?

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:


In the Eastern churches is the eucharistic prayer called and pronounced "AnAphora" or "AnaPHORa"? Which syllable gets the stress?

In this case, the antepenult. In general, it depends on the length of the vowel in the ultima.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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The Silent Acolyte

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Which, for those sports fans following along at home, would be anAphora.
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leo
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I have just watched last night's broadcast of midnight mass from Arundel RC Cathedral and noticed that they didn't genuflect during the incarnatus section of the creed but did so AFTERwards - a profund silence.


Is this a new ruling or just local custom?

Whichever, I like it.

At our place, half the congregation caught up with the rest of us when we were standing again. And it used to be like that back in the days when we used to genuflect every Sunday, not just Xmas and Lady Day.

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Robert Armin

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# 182

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Carols from Kings on Christmas Eve concluded, quite rightly, with John 1. However, the subtitles ended the first sentence with, "The Word was God's". Was this a typo, or some trendy new translation?

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Spike

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Carols from Kings on Christmas Eve concluded, quite rightly, with John 1. However, the subtitles ended the first sentence with, "The Word was God's". Was this a typo, or some trendy new translation?

Probably the person typing the subtitles not being familiar with the text and not paying attention to what s/he was listening to.

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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