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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
rolyn
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# 16840

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Legal gun owners do have a slight tendency to be the most dangerous, certainly true in the U.K.

"These guns are mine . The law is satisfied that I am the legitimate owner of them Therefore I can, if wish, legitimately fantasise about shooting people".

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. full stop for the purpose of leaving gap under post.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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From a CNN article on this story:
quote:
Florida law prohibits guns inside terminals unless they are still in their case, but there is a bill before the state legislature to allow guns in public places like airports.
Is there no end to the stupidity of our species?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
From a CNN article on this story:
quote:
Florida law prohibits guns inside terminals unless they are still in their case, but there is a bill before the state legislature to allow guns in public places like airports.
Is there no end to the stupidity of our species?
Welcome to Arizona.
[Roll Eyes]

--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
From a CNN article on this story:
quote:
Florida law prohibits guns inside terminals unless they are still in their case, but there is a bill before the state legislature to allow guns in public places like airports.
Is there no end to the stupidity of our species?
Welcome to Arizona.
[Roll Eyes]

Maybe The Japanese can teach us all something.

--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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--Interesting article, Zappa. I especially like the idea of rolling an out-of-control person up in a futon. I'm surprised that the Japanese police are expected to earn a black belt. That's a pretty high standard.

I don't think most of Japan's approach, per the article, would work in the US, due to the vast cultural differences and all the things Americans have mentioned on this thread. I'm glad Japan has something that works for them. I do question, though, the statement that people expect things to be peaceful, so they are.


--Re the shooter who took his gun along in his packed luggage:

The news yesterday showed a video of how that's legally possible. the gun owner has to put the unloaded gun in a hard case--plastic, wood, metal--that locks. I don't remember if ammo can be in the case, or in the luggage that carries it. I was thinking that one way to make things a *little* safer would be ban bringing ammo--whether in the case, the luggage, or on the gun owner's person. Can a search dog smell gun powder?

Air marshals should be able to have unloaded guns on/with them, with ammo nearby. Possibly also other law enforcement folks--when transporting a dangerous prisoner, for instance.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Boogie

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# 13538

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I disagree cultures can change and so can attitudes.

"There are also mental health and drugs tests. Your criminal record is checked and police look for links to extremist groups. Then they check your relatives too - and even your work colleagues. And as well as having the power to deny gun licences, police also have sweeping powers to search and seize weapons.

That's not all. Handguns are banned outright. Only shotguns and air rifles are allowed.

The law restricts the number of gun shops. In most of Japan's 40 or so prefectures there can be no more than three, and you can only buy fresh cartridges by returning the spent cartridges you bought on your last visit."

Excellent. If I lived in the USA I'd be spreading this message far and wide.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
If I lived in the USA I'd be spreading this message far and wide.

Many Americans try, but the National Rifle Association is enormous and powerful.

Among the many speaking out about sensible gun solutions is a former Congresswoman from Arizona, Gabby Giffords, who was almost killed by a deranged gunman six years ago today. Six other peope were killed, and others injured. She and her astronaut husband, Mark Kelly, are strong advocates of sensible legislation on this issue.

[ 08. January 2017, 12:25: Message edited by: Pigwidgeon ]

--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--Interesting article, Zappa. I especially like the idea of rolling an out-of-control person up in a futon.

Of course that's more of an option when you can be 99.9% sure he doesn't have a gun.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by passer:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The gun was in his checked luggage in the hold, so not accessible to him during the flight. Which must cause no end of headaches for security checking luggage for explosives, the gunpowder in the ammunition and residuals on the gun should trigger the alarms and be indistinguishable from a bomb without extra examination.

"He checked in an unloaded gun and ammunition with his luggage, and loaded the semi-automatic gun in the toilet after landing and collecting his bag. He surrendered to police when he ran out of ammunition." (from the BBC news report)

So that was OK then. He followed all the rules for transporting his (presumably) legally-held weapon. The rules work. He did nothing illegal until he killed people. Nothing to see here, move along. [/sarcasm]

[cont.sarcasm] It's also okay for him to have a gun even though he clearly has schizophrenia, because he hasn't had enough care from a psychiatrist to be entered into the "don't sell guns to him" list. Only the mentally ill who are stabilized on medication and under the care of a regular psychiatrist and probably not at all dangerous would be on that list. [/sarcasm]
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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
...Welcome to Arizona.
[Roll Eyes]

From the linked article:


quote:
"There is never anything to fear from peaceful, responsible gun owners."

Because peaceful, responsible people never lose their temper and do something irresponsible. I'm so FUCKING sick of this stupid line of bullshit. Sure, all the children in Lake Wobegon are above average, but when it comes to guns, this fallacy kills.

My burg has been hit by several snowfalls, and apparently there were scuffles at some local fire halls over free salt. Salt. Just salt. It really doesn't take much to send ordinary people around the bend. And I'm also sick of the cliché about an armed society being a polite society. An armed society is a society where assholes can be armed.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
...Welcome to Arizona.
[Roll Eyes]

From the linked article:


quote:
"There is never anything to fear from peaceful, responsible gun owners."

Because peaceful, responsible people never lose their temper and do something irresponsible. I'm so FUCKING sick of this stupid line of bullshit. Sure, all the children in Lake Wobegon are above average, but when it comes to guns, this fallacy kills.

Agree strongly. Every gun owner is peaceful and responsible and law-abiding right up until the second they pull the trigger. How can I tell, before that point, which ones will STAY peaceful and responsible and law-abiding until I leave the Starbucks? Every gun-owner is Schrödinger's Gun Owner. You don't know if they're good or evil until you open the box -- that is, until they open fire. Even if I make it out of the Starbucks without any shooting taking place, the gunslinger then might go to the Piggly Wiggly and start shooting there.

The only RESPONSIBLE gun owner is the one who leaves his gun at home or at the shooting range, locked. Exception made for hunting but even there you're back in Schrödinger territory.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Huia
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Legal gun owners do have a slight tendency to be the most dangerous, certainly true in the U.K.

This doesn't seem to be true in NZ where few of the gun crimes are committed by licensed gun owners. More are committed by people who have them illegally.

Personally I hate firearms and have no reason to want to own any, but a friend of mine D does own at least one (a hunting rifle - hand guns are illegal) and when he needed to renew his license he asked if I would be willing to be interviewed by the police officer who was vetting him, as we have known each other for over 25 years and he doesn't have a long-term partner. The interview, a small part of the vetting process, lasted over a couple of hours at D's house, but without his presence. I was surprised at the depth of questioning, and felt quite wrung out at the end.

It was obvious from some of the questions the cop had also talked to other people about D, including other hunters and the local head of the Police Armed Offenders' Squad, whom D knows personally.

At the end of the interview I told the cop I would rather no one owned firearms at all, but after knowing D for so long I understood better why he chose to and had never felt threatened by him having them.

I think the NZ system is far from perfect, and we still have too many firearms crimes and accidents.

Huia

--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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lilBuddha
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Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
You don't know if they're good or evil until you open the box
It is beyond a binary issue like good or evil. Almost everyone will have witnessed, or participated in, an unintentional confrontation where a fight or argument resulted. It isn't only the bad person who shoots people.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Alan Cresswell

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It is much more binary at the moment when a confrontation escalates. When an argument reaches the point where a punch is thrown, is not the first person to strike out in the wrong? When the fight escalates to a gun being drawn and fired, is not the person who responded to a fist fight with a lethal weapon in the wrong? A good person can, of course, do a bad thing, and that bad act doesn't suddenly make that person bad in general - but, in the specific moment the bad choice was made that was bad.

Ready access to a gun makes it easier for someone who makes a bad choice to make that even worse.

--------------------
Citizen of the world.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I was thinking that one way to make things a *little* safer would be ban bringing ammo--whether in the case, the luggage, or on the gun owner's person. Can a search dog smell gun powder?

A gun without ammo is pretty useless. So, would such a proposal not be effectively banning people from transporting guns in their luggage? In which case, why not just ban guns from luggage?

Dogs (and machines) can detect trace levels of explosives, and gun powder is just another explosive. I would, therefore, expect that they should easily be able to detect ammunition, and quite possibly gunpowder residue on a gun itself. One of the accounts I read said that this man had declared that he had a gun and ammo in his luggage, which would make sense if that was going to set off the explosives sensing equipment. Presumably it was inspected seperately because it couldn't just go through the normal channels without setting off alarms (I do similar when taking my scientific equipment on a plane - if the staff looking at the x-rays know in advance that they're going to see a set of metal cylinders with wires attached they tend to be less concerned, and I then open the case and get everything examined by hand).

--------------------
Citizen of the world.

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jbohn
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
One of the accounts I read said that this man had declared that he had a gun and ammo in his luggage, which would make sense if that was going to set off the explosives sensing equipment.

It's legally required to fly with a firearm in the US - the firearm must be declared, and the bag (a locked, hard-sided container) must be inspected by the TSA in the presence of the owner, and then locked with a non-TSA lock (you can buy luggage locks here that the TSA can open with a master key - can't use those for firearms.) The bag is then sealed until the owner retrieves it at their final destination.

Ammunition must be carried in a container designed for that purpose, and not loaded in the firearm, though both the firearm and the ammunition can be in the same luggage.

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
One of the accounts I read said that this man had declared that he had a gun and ammo in his luggage, which would make sense if that was going to set off the explosives sensing equipment.

It's legally required to fly with a firearm in the US - the firearm must be declared, and the bag (a locked, hard-sided container) must be inspected by the TSA in the presence of the owner, and then locked with a non-TSA lock (you can buy luggage locks here that the TSA can open with a master key - can't use those for firearms.) The bag is then sealed until the owner retrieves it at their final destination.

Ammunition must be carried in a container designed for that purpose, and not loaded in the firearm, though both the firearm and the ammunition can be in the same luggage.

Well, this latest incident has demonstrated the flaws in that set of rules very nicely, hasn't it? It merely means that airlines offer a particularly safe and secure method of transporting deadly weaponry to another location.

Of course, there's a more general problem here, because it's far too easy to transfer the guns from a permissible location to a non-permissible location when the permissible locations are in the majority. Whether it's particular types of places like airports, or churches, or the common observation that Chicago's gun laws are ineffective because Indiana is just down the road.

So long as there is a general right and acceptance of carrying guns around in public spaces, it's pretty well impossible to enforce small pockets of gun-free zones.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It is much more binary at the moment when a confrontation escalates. When an argument reaches the point where a punch is thrown, is not the first person to strike out in the wrong? When the fight escalates to a gun being drawn and fired, is not the person who responded to a fist fight with a lethal weapon in the wrong? A good person can, of course, do a bad thing, and that bad act doesn't suddenly make that person bad in general - but, in the specific moment the bad choice was made that was bad.

My comment was more about seeing the gun issue as only a problem caused by people evil, bad or disturbed; not assigning blame to victim as well as perpetrator or removing agency from them either.

quote:

Ready access to a gun makes it easier for someone who makes a bad choice to make that even worse.

No argument here.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
It's legally required to fly with a firearm in the US - the firearm must be declared, and the bag (a locked, hard-sided container) must be inspected by the TSA in the presence of the owner, and then locked with a non-TSA lock (you can buy luggage locks here that the TSA can open with a master key - can't use those for firearms.) The bag is then sealed until the owner retrieves it at their final destination.

Ammunition must be carried in a container designed for that purpose, and not loaded in the firearm, though both the firearm and the ammunition can be in the same luggage.

Well, this latest incident has demonstrated the flaws in that set of rules very nicely, hasn't it? It merely means that airlines offer a particularly safe and secure method of transporting deadly weaponry to another location.
That may well be the case. Reporting, not necessarily endorsing.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Of course, there's a more general problem here, because it's far too easy to transfer the guns from a permissible location to a non-permissible location when the permissible locations are in the majority. Whether it's particular types of places like airports, or churches, or the common observation that Chicago's gun laws are ineffective because Indiana is just down the road.

Given the near-impossibility that the US Constitution would be suitably amended to change this, do you have any suggestions?

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
So long as there is a general right and acceptance of carrying guns around in public spaces, it's pretty well impossible to enforce small pockets of gun-free zones.

You may be right. Of course, for extremely small zones (a building, for instance) one can secure them fairly thoroughly and enforce gun-free zones. It's expensive, and generally unpopular, however - a cursory Googling can find the bazillions of complaints about airport security here in the US.

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

Posts: 955 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
Given the near-impossibility that the US Constitution would be suitably amended to change this, do you have any suggestions?

Yes. Interpreting the US Constitution correctly. Go back a couple of generations and the Supreme Court firmly believed the bit about being part of a militia meant something.

It's not the text that's the problem, it's the interpretation of it that ignores part of the text.

And while you're at it, find some judges who don't think that a corporation can have a religion.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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This article is very much worth a read on the subject.

For example, the first legal article suggesting an individual right to a gun dates from 1960.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Alan--

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I was thinking that one way to make things a *little* safer would be ban bringing ammo--whether in the case, the luggage, or on the gun owner's person. Can a search dog smell gun powder?

A gun without ammo is pretty useless. So, would such a proposal not be effectively banning people from transporting guns in their luggage? In which case, why not just ban guns from luggage?
I don't want guns on planes *at all*. However, give that this long-time gun problem in American culture isn't going to change any time soon (if ever), and keeping in mind what Americans have explained throughout this thread, and keeping in mind all the many serious attempts to approve things...sometimes, there's a better chance of accomplishing a *small* thing.

So I figured that only the law enforcement people I mentioned would have any legit need for ammo during the flight. Civilian gun owners can buy ammo in their destination city. It's a compromise; but one that has at least a chance of working, because it allows gun owners to feel their 2nd amendment rights are being respected. Some people will resist it. But it might be worth a try.

quote:
Dogs (and machines) can detect trace levels of explosives, and gun powder is just another explosive. I would, therefore, expect that they should easily be able to detect ammunition, and quite possibly gunpowder residue on a gun itself. One of the accounts I read said that this man had declared that he had a gun and ammo in his luggage, which would make sense if that was going to set off the explosives sensing equipment. Presumably it was inspected seperately because it couldn't just go through the normal channels without setting off alarms (I do similar when taking my scientific equipment on a plane - if the staff looking at the x-rays know in advance that they're going to see a set of metal cylinders with wires attached they tend to be less concerned, and I then open the case and get everything examined by hand).
Thanks for all of this. Wow, re getting your scientific equipment through security!

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 16815 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
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# 331

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jbohn:
quote:
It's legally required to fly with a firearm in the US...
[Eek!] <reads to end of post> Ah. As you were.

I like the Japanese approach to controlling violence, actually. There is something very appealing about the idea of rolling violent people up in a futon and taking them off to the police station to calm down. Might work in the UK; wouldn't work in the US without a complete culture change.

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jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yes. Interpreting the US Constitution correctly. Go back a couple of generations and the Supreme Court firmly believed the bit about being part of a militia meant something.

It's not the text that's the problem, it's the interpretation of it that ignores part of the text.

And while you're at it, find some judges who don't think that a corporation can have a religion.

From your lips to God's ear. Pray tell, how best to *do* that? Did our bit this November, not that it worked out for us. I don't see much luck with this for the next four years, and probably quite a bit longer if Captain Cheeto gets to stack the SCOTUS.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
This article is very much worth a read on the subject.

For example, the first legal article suggesting an individual right to a gun dates from 1960.

Interesting article. Thanks for the link. The NRA these days, of course, is nothing like the NRA of my grandfather's day. The inmates took over the asylum.

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
jbohn:
quote:
It's legally required to fly with a firearm in the US...
[Eek!] <reads to end of post> Ah. As you were.
[Biased]

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I like the Japanese approach to controlling violence, actually. There is something very appealing about the idea of rolling violent people up in a futon and taking them off to the police station to calm down. Might work in the UK; wouldn't work in the US without a complete culture change.

I tend to agree - on both points. I like the idea of rolling them up very much!

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

Posts: 955 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yes. Interpreting the US Constitution correctly. Go back a couple of generations and the Supreme Court firmly believed the bit about being part of a militia meant something.

It's not the text that's the problem, it's the interpretation of it that ignores part of the text.

And while you're at it, find some judges who don't think that a corporation can have a religion.

From your lips to God's ear. Pray tell, how best to *do* that? Did our bit this November, not that it worked out for us. I don't see much luck with this for the next four years, and probably quite a bit longer if Captain Cheeto gets to stack the SCOTUS.

Yeah, well, I nearly threw in a comment about the problems caused by your court appointment process being so intensely political. Every time I see a picture of Mitch McConnell I want to reach through the screen and throttle him.

It's hard to see exactly where to untie the knot. I suspect the "simplest" answer is that the NRA needs the same kind of internal revolution that caused the NRA to become lunatics, just in the reverse direction so that the NRA becomes sane again.

Or alternatively, an alternative gun-owner's association that builds up a power base to rival the NRA and draws the sane folk away from the NRA. Given what some of the surveys say, the potential membership for an alternative exists.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 17794 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged



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