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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sundry liturgical questions
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Not pedantic any more than distinguishing jazz and rap.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Should you sing Wesley's and Watts hymns in the original pronunciation?
For congregational singing, everyone's going to sing the modern pronunciation. You can mark extra syllables, but it's awkward in the extreme to try and mark pronunciation.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
She was terribly correct...
p-ro-noun-ci-a-ci-on
The irony of this is too de-li-ci-ous not to be pointed out.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I am remembering someone in her nineties when I was a child, but I really don't think she said pro-noun-ci-a-ti-on, or pro-noun-ci-a-shi-on, but really pro-noun-ci-a-ci-on. It's one that stuck in my head because it was so odd. That and the the five syllables of Ch-r-is-ti-an, which did have a ti sound. Her accent was similar to that of early recordings of the Queen, very slowly enunciating every syllable.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Particularly pronounced (no pun intended) examples of this pronunciation in today's BBC R3 Choral Evensong .
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Yes..."lead us not into "tem-ptay-cee-yon"
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Actually, it makes ME feel less guilty but more contrite...
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Lets me charitable and say that this weekend's revelations may have been at the forefront of his remind, rather than the niceties of liturgical vesture.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
As Archbishop, what he does defines the rules, just as with Pope Frances and whose feet a Pope may wash on Maundy Thursday.
[ 11. April 2016, 08:15: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Stole over chasuble? Shurely shome mishtake.
Logo on mitre as well. Boo! If that's a trend, it needs to be stopped.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Stole over chasuble? Shurely shome mishtake.
I've seen it before. Some are designed that way. (I'm not saying I think it's right, just that it happens)
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Stole over chasuble? Shurely shome mishtake.
I've seen it before. Some are designed that way. (I'm not saying I think it's right, just that it happens)
A bit of a 70s thing I think, and made 'popular' by firms like Slabbinck.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
On Easter Day I attended a dawn Confirmation Service. We were asked to bring bells and jingle them during the Gloria, which was new to me. Was this because of Easter or Confirmation do you think?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
When the Gloria comes back on Maundy Thursday, the bells in the church are supposed to be rung, and the organ used for accompaniment (it is the last time they will be heard until Easter). Likewise, at the Easter Vigil, the organ and bells sound for the first time since Maundy Thursday at the Gloria.
It sounds like you were at a Vigil-less place that nevertheless wanted to mark the old custom. In the same way, there are parishes where the Exsultet is chanted on Easter morning, since there was no Vigil service.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
As Archbishop, what he does defines the rules, just as with Pope Frances and whose feet a Pope may wash on Maundy Thursday.
Pope Frances? Do you know something the rest of us don't?
And leo- chasalb? Is there really such a thing? Say it ain't so. When I looked for pictures Google thought I meant 'chasabl' which appears to be a website for, ahem, gentlemen who prefer the larger gentleman.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
On Easter Day I attended a dawn Confirmation Service. We were asked to bring bells and jingle them during the Gloria, which was new to me. Was this because of Easter or Confirmation do you think?
The bells should have been silent since the Gloria on Maundy Thursday and they are rung again at the Easter Vigil to mark the end of Lent and the Vigil.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Double posted with Fr W.
I seem to remember chasuble/albs in Vanheems catalogues in the 70s.
At least evangelical bishops actually wear chasubles now rather than copes.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
As Archbishop, what he does defines the rules, just as with Pope Frances and whose feet a Pope may wash on Maundy Thursday.
Pope Frances? Do you know something the rest of us don't? ...
I do not know if you remember that there was a big row a year or two ago among the pernickety and those who think they know better than the Holy Father, when Pope Francis included women and non-Christians among those whose feet he washed.
I'm no expert in these things. I'm CofE, not Catholic and my knowledge of this comes only from the Ship and the press. But the feet were supposed to be male, Catholic and preferably at least priests if not cardinals.
[ 12. April 2016, 08:31: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Pope Francis, not Frances.
The Roman Catholic Church haven't got round to electing a woman pope yet.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Robert Armin quote:
... bring bells and jingle them during the Gloria ...
As mentioned above, this happens twice: after the intonation of the Gloria on Maundy Thursday and again at the Easter Vigil.
The correct term for this is a strepitus.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
On Easter Day I attended a dawn Confirmation Service. We were asked to bring bells and jingle them during the Gloria, which was new to me. Was this because of Easter or Confirmation do you think?
This is suggested for most (if not all) the possible variants of the Easter Liturgy suggested in Common Worship:Times and Seasons (PDF)
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Pope Francis, not Frances.
The Roman Catholic Church haven't got round to electing a woman pope yet.
My apologies. I hadn't noticed that. Automatic text correction and the worldwide IT industry's preference for deciding what it would like things to say rather than what I want, strikes again.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The Roman Catholic Church haven't got round to electing a woman pope yet.
But would anything prevent a newly elected pope from taking a woman's name?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
That would be interesting. I always stressed to my confirmation students that their confirmation saint didn't have to be the same gender as them. I never had a male pick a woman, though. Male and female confirmands sometimes picked angels; female confirmands picking humans picked mainly female names, but sometimes male names; male confirmands picking humans picked solely male names. It would be neat to see a Pope break this pattern!
I do know some Franciscans with Mary as one of their names in religion, but I think they all go by their other name (eg. "Mary Bonaventure" goes by "Br. Bonaventure" in day-to-day conversation).
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
In a number of Romance language countries Mary is often used as a male name but comes after a more recognisably male name e.g. Jose Maria (Spanish)
Jean- Marie (French) Giovanni Maria (Italian) and non Romance language but Catholic provenance Erich Maria Remarque (German).
If Maria comes first it will be a female person
e.g. Marie-Jose, a Belgian princess who became Queen consort of Italy.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Don't Cistercian monks all take Mary as a first name, before their usual name 'in religion'? I seem to think Thomas Merton (Fr Louis OCSO) was strictly Frater Maria Ludovicus (if that is the Latin for Louis).
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
In a number of Romance language countries Mary is often used as a male name but comes after a more recognisably male name e.g. Jose Maria (Spanish)
Jean- Marie (French) Giovanni Maria (Italian) and non Romance language but Catholic provenance Erich Maria Remarque (German).
If Maria comes first it will be a female person
e.g. Marie-Jose, a Belgian princess who became Queen consort of Italy.
That's curious. I've always assumed the Italian name Mario is the masculine form of Mary.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
On Easter Day I attended a dawn Confirmation Service. We were asked to bring bells and jingle them during the Gloria, which was new to me. Was this because of Easter or Confirmation do you think?
This is suggested for most (if not all) the possible variants of the Easter Liturgy suggested in Common Worship:Times and Seasons (PDF)
We use party poppers too.
It is a relic of the time when the bells rang at the start of the Gloria on Maundy Thursday evening - and they ring again when the gloria is resumed at Easter.
[ 12. April 2016, 15:38: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Robert Armin quote:
... bring bells and jingle them during the Gloria ...
As mentioned above, this happens twice: after the intonation of the Gloria on Maundy Thursday and again at the Easter Vigil.
The correct term for this is a strepitus.
I've only ever heard "strepitus" used to refer to the loud noise made at the conclusion of the office of Tenebrae. I suppose the ringing of bells could also be called a din or crashing noise, but "tintinnabulum" seems like it might be a more appropriate Latin word.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Yes, the strepitus is not the ringing of the bells during the Gloria. And at the consecration on Maundy Thursday the bells are replaced by the crotalus - a rattle.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
That's curious. I've always assumed the Italian name Mario is the masculine form of Mary.
That is indeed true, and it is part of the Holy Father's birth name--Jorge Mario Bergoglio. He used it frequently as a cardinal, and it was included in the Latin announcement of his election to the pontificate: Annuntio vobis gaudium magnum: HABEMUS PAPAM! Eminentissimum ac reverendissimum Dominum, Dominum Georgiam Mariam Sanctæ Romanæ Ecclesiæ Cardinalem Bergoglio, qui sibi nomen imposuit Franciscum. In English, that is: I announce to you a great joy. WE HAVE A POPE! The Most Eminent and Reverend Lord, Lord Jorge Mario, Cardinal of the Holy Roman Church Bergoglio, who takes to himself the name Francis.
Normally, Mario is the masculine form of Mary, but when the name is given in honor of Our Lady or another saint whose name includes hers, it is often rendered in the feminine Mary, Marie or Maria, depending on the language. Thuse, one sees St. Jean-Marie Vianney, St. Jose Maria Escriva, or Brother Augustine Mary.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I have always assumed that Mario is an Italian form of the Latin Marius.
Italian language Wikipedia bears this out, though it tells us that Marius is the masculine form of the name of the Roman family 'gens Maria'. It has little to do with the Latin name of the Virgin Mary.
It is possible that the Latin form of the Hebrew name of Mary was chosen for its similarity to the family 'gens Maria'
For what it is worth Italian wikidedia says that occasionally people will use the name 'Mario' because of linking it with 'Maria'
It further suggests that when used for a male person it should be stressed on the 'a' rather than the more commonly stressed'i'
I listened carefully more than once to the Cardinal who announced 'Habemus papam' and it was my impression that he said :
Dominum Georgium Marium S.R.E.cardinalem Bergoglio
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I have always assumed that Mario is an Italian form of the Latin Marius.
Italian language Wikipedia bears this out, though it tells us that Marius is the masculine form of the name of the Roman family 'gens Maria'. It has little to do with the Latin name of the Virgin Mary.
It is possible that the Latin form of the Hebrew name of Mary was chosen for its similarity to the family 'gens Maria' in pagan times. However, like all saints' names, when a Catholic chooses the name it certainly is not for the pagan family, but usually the Mother of God or a saint named for her. You can be sure that is from where the Pope's middle name derived.
For what it is worth Italian wikidedia says that occasionally people will use the name 'Mario' because of linking it with 'Maria'
It further suggests that when used for a male person it should be stressed on the 'a' rather than the more commonly stressed'i'
I listened carefully more than once to the Cardinal who announced 'Habemus papam' and it was my impression that he said :
Dominum Georgium Marium S.R.E.cardinalem Bergoglio
The last line is what I posted above.
It is true that Mario derives from the Latin Marius, and that was from the family gens Maria in pagan times. However, like other saints' names, when a Catholic chooses the name, it usually is not for the pagan family, but for the Mother of God or a saint named for her. You can be sure that is from where the Pope's middle name derived.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I'm happy to accept the pope's middle name whatever its origin or whatever the intention his parents had in giving him this middle name.
On my screen,however, you seem to have written Dominum Georgiam Mariam - which would suggest a closer link with Maria that Mario indicates.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Perhaps his Grace of Canterbury has been shopping with Belgian Roman Catholics.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Church supply companies, who are far more influential in what apparel is used by clerics than many would realize, pushed the stole-over-the chasuble style beginning in the late seventies. The trend peaked in the eighties and early nineties, then began to fade, partly because of RC liturgical reminders than a stole is to be worn under the chazzie, and also because like secular fashion designers (and auto manufacturers), church suppliers are always eager to introduce new items to convince churches that they need the newest and best. There are still some RC places in the U.S. that wear this style, but not too many.
[ 13. April 2016, 11:25: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
I do know some Franciscans with Mary as one of their names in religion.
It is (or used to be) common among nuns. I can remember a Sister Jerome, Sister Eduardo and Sister Thomas Francis from my Sunday school days.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
There are still some RC places in the U.S. that wear this style, but not too many.
I think one would be too many.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
Posts: 257 | From: In bed. Mostly. When I can get away with it. | Registered: Dec 2015
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Perhaps his Grace of Canterbury has been shopping with Belgian Roman Catholics.
But there are some gorgeous (other) things on that site...
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I have always assumed that Mario is an Italian form of the Latin Marius.
Italian language Wikipedia bears this out, though it tells us that Marius is the masculine form of the name of the Roman family 'gens Maria'. It has little to do with the Latin name of the Virgin Mary.
It is possible that the Latin form of the Hebrew name of Mary was chosen for its similarity to the family 'gens Maria'
For what it is worth Italian wikidedia says that occasionally people will use the name 'Mario' because of linking it with 'Maria'
It further suggests that when used for a male person it should be stressed on the 'a' rather than the more commonly stressed'i'
I listened carefully more than once to the Cardinal who announced 'Habemus papam' and it was my impression that he said :
Dominum Georgium Marium S.R.E.cardinalem Bergoglio
It looks like his birth name is Jorge Mario, but I don't think it would be unusual at all for a boy in a Spanish-Speaking country to be named Jorge Maria. Jose Maria is a pretty common name for men. And in Spanish-Speaking countries, it is also very common for a person to have basically two first names, rather than viewing the second name as a "middle" name.
[ 13. April 2016, 21:35: Message edited by: stonespring ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Church supply companies, who are far more influential in what apparel is used by clerics than many would realize, pushed the stole-over-the chasuble style beginning in the late seventies. The trend peaked in the eighties and early nineties, then began to fade, partly because of RC liturgical reminders than a stole is to be worn under the chazzie, ...
The Archbishop of Canterbury is not an RC bishop. He is entitled, as he pleases, to ignore RC liturgical reminders, or to be completely unaware of them.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
And indeed, a few years back a bishop from an evangelical background would not have worn a chasuble at all on principle. (They wore copes or even rochet and chimere).
Archbishop Welby is wearing a chasuble. I think that's an advance. (Pity about the external stole, but that's a detail.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Church supply companies, who are far more influential in what apparel is used by clerics than many would realize, pushed the stole-over-the chasuble style beginning in the late seventies. The trend peaked in the eighties and early nineties, then began to fade, partly because of RC liturgical reminders than a stole is to be worn under the chazzie, ...
The Archbishop of Canterbury is not an RC bishop. He is entitled, as he pleases, to ignore RC liturgical reminders, or to be completely unaware of them.
I really do not get the point here. Did someone say otherwise?
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Church supply companies, who are far more influential in what apparel is used by clerics than many would realize, pushed the stole-over-the chasuble style beginning in the late seventies. The trend peaked in the eighties and early nineties, then began to fade, partly because of RC liturgical reminders than a stole is to be worn under the chazzie, ...
The Archbishop of Canterbury is not an RC bishop. He is entitled, as he pleases, to ignore RC liturgical reminders, or to be completely unaware of them.
Quite true. But the stole over the chasuble still looks twatty.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Church supply companies, who are far more influential in what apparel is used by clerics than many would realize ...
Not for 99% of Baptists.
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Church supply companies, who are far more influential in what apparel is used by clerics than many would realize ...
Not for 99% of Baptists.
Some here may recall 'That was the week that was' broadcast by the BBC in the 1960s, introduced by David Frost. Frostie would invite viewers to send him quotes that could be misconstrued. One such was a declaration made by a Baptist minister - "I shall wear nothing to distinguish me from members of my congregation". To which DF observed that it almost certainly would ...
[ 14. April 2016, 20:20: Message edited by: Metapelagius ]
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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