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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Daily Office (yet again)
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
I forgot to mention the Dominican Antiphonal, which has chants for nearly all of the Liturgy of the Hours. Much of this is in Dominican chant, which is a variant of Gregorian chant.
I should also mention the Liber Cantualis has Compline for Sundays (in Latin), which in the Liturgy of the Hours can be said any day of the week.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Antiphon
Shipmate
# 14779
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Posted
I'm feeling rather pleased as I've just taken delivery of a complete set of "The Hours of the Divine Office in English and Latin" published by Liturgical Press at Collegeville in 1963. The books are in excellent condition and I paid just over £100 for the set, which I feel is a good bargain.
I'm not now sure if it is really worth paying over £200 for the Baronius Press Breviary when it (hopefully) appears in August, although the latter will have the Vulgate translation for the Latin psalms. This is generally preferred to that sanctioned by Pius XII which appeared in the original Collegeville breviary. As I am not a Latinist myself I will probably find the Pius XII translation perfectly adequate for personal recitation.
At the same time, I'm not too keen on the English translation of the office so I will not use it for recitation, although it is good to have it for reference when one is praying the office.
Does anyone else currently make use of the Collegeville breviary or plan to buy the Baronius Press edition when is is published?
Posts: 235 | From: Nowhere in Particular | Registered: May 2009
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I'm feeling rather pleased as I've just taken delivery of a complete set of "The Hours of the Divine Office in English and Latin" published by Liturgical Press at Collegeville in 1963. The books are in excellent condition and I paid just over £100 for the set, which I feel is a good bargain.
I'm not now sure if it is really worth paying over £200 for the Baronius Press Breviary when it (hopefully) appears in August, although the latter will have the Vulgate translation for the Latin psalms. This is generally preferred to that sanctioned by Pius XII which appeared in the original Collegeville breviary. As I am not a Latinist myself I will probably find the Pius XII translation perfectly adequate for personal recitation.
At the same time, I'm not too keen on the English translation of the office so I will not use it for recitation, although it is good to have it for reference when one is praying the office.
Does anyone else currently make use of the Collegeville breviary or plan to buy the Baronius Press edition when is is published?
I use the Collegeville breviary and, like you, have no problem with the Latin, notwithstanding the popular Trad objections to the Pian version. I don't mind the English translation, although the hymns suffer through being derived from a very literal translation which draws out the meaning to the detriment of the form. I am less bothered by the collects, although I would prefer it if they weren't chopped up into smaller sentences. All in all I am very happy with the set and, although I wish it well, I won't be getting the Baronius Press version.
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
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Bran Stark
Shipmate
# 15252
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Posted
I just acquired a copy of "The Book of Common Prayer as proposed in 1928: Including the Lessons for Mattins and Evensong throughout the year". It's quite bulky, one reason for this being that numerous services are given both in 1662 and 1928 forms. Personally I'd rather just have the originals, but the other reason for its bulk more than makes up for this: It contains, as per the title, the complete text of all Biblical readings needed. No need to carry about a second book, which makes me very happy. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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IN SOVIET ЯUSSIA, SIGNATUЯE ЯEAD YOU!
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jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
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Posted
Bran,
A friend in the UK sent me a copy of the "Daily Service Book" which is a 1662 BCP bound with the 1922 Lectionary readings. I'm really enjoying it!
Posts: 268 | From: Albany, NY | Registered: Aug 2010
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I have a dim suspicion from the type face and layout that the lessons section of that book may originally have been the lessons section of the English Office.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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Antiphon
Shipmate
# 14779
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Posted
According to the Baronius Press website production of the forthcoming Latin/English breviary has been delayed further due to adverse weather conditions affecting the printer!!!
I'm glad I managed to get hold of my original Collegeville set!!
Posts: 235 | From: Nowhere in Particular | Registered: May 2009
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
I just acquired a copy of "The Book of Common Prayer as proposed in 1928: Including the Lessons for Mattins and Evensong throughout the year". It's quite bulky, one reason for this being that numerous services are given both in 1662 and 1928 forms.
Does anyone know if there is an easily available edition of the not-really-a-prayer-book-honest-guv 1928? It would be useful to have to complete the set even if it could never be used in church services, oh no, not us, we wouldn't dream of such a thing.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Do you know, I don't think I've ever seen one! I understand they turn up now and then in secondhand shops, but I've never chanced on such a thing myself and I doubt that they are printed from new these days.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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DitzySpike
Shipmate
# 1540
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Does anyone know if there is an easily available edition of the not-really-a-prayer-book-honest-guv 1928? It would be useful to have to complete the set even if it could never be used in church services, oh no, not us, we wouldn't dream of such a thing.
There!
Posts: 498 | From: Singapore | Registered: Oct 2001
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scuffleball
Shipmate
# 16480
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Posted
I have two questions.
Firstly, if you say the 1662 BCP office privately, do you include the long exhortation before general confession? It seems strange to say it if you're not with strangers or in a church service. The prayer book revision attributed to Dearmer seems to encourage making confession into its own service, which seems strange given that Dearmer campaigned against the Frankenmass. The CW in traditional language seems to permit a cut-down version, but that too seems odd.
Secondly, I am planning a trip that involves packing lightly and no internet access for long periods of time and am looking for something like a BCP, bible and psalter in one volume.I don't particularly want something that's antique, decorative or valuable, just handy. Much to my surprise, Google is not my friend. The CW daily prayer book, for instance, would be no good because it's so big, and the online version wouldn't work either. Most BCPs/Bibles I have seen in Christian Bookshops are confirmation/baptism presentation copies, which would be no good, and as both the 1662 BCP and CW daily prayer are available for free online most people don't seem to have them for sale there either.
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SPK: I also plan to create ... a Calvinist Ordinariate
ken: I thought it was called Taize?
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
I don't think the 1662 was ever really intended as a purely private devotion... daily use amongst a family or class, perhaps. One would have to modify it with omission of things like that, I suppose.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Bran Stark
Shipmate
# 15252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Firstly, if you say the 1662 BCP office privately, do you include the long exhortation before general confession? It seems strange to say it if you're not with strangers or in a church service.
I do indeed always announce to my dearly beloved brethren that I pray and beseech them to accompany me with a pure heart and humble voice unto the throne of the heavenly grace, even though they are conspicuously absent. It's strange, yes. But surely the angels are listening.
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IN SOVIET ЯUSSIA, SIGNATUЯE ЯEAD YOU!
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
When 1662 was my daily office I would omit the Exhortation and the Absolution when I was alone. The former is allowed by the 1873 "Shortened Services Act" the other is common custom when reciting in private.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I had always assumed that the penitential introduction to the BCP office was customarily (if not strictly according to the rubric) omitted on weekdays whether or not a congregation was present. Certainly that is the way I have always experienced it, in theological college and parishes. I think many cathedrals omit it at Choral Evensong.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
That's certainly the way it's done in the Colleges near me, Angloid. But on Sunday, whether in parish or College the penitential material is included. Sadly, I don't think any of the Cambridge Colleges use the exhortations.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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catholicedinburgh
Apprentice
# 12668
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Posted
**BUMP**
If anyone is interested, I have a copy of Monastic Diurnal Noted for sale on ebay at the moment. Search for reference [advertising removed] and you'll see it.
Thanks
[ 27. August 2011, 22:20: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
Posts: 22 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: May 2007
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I had always assumed that the penitential introduction to the BCP office was customarily (if not strictly according to the rubric) omitted on weekdays whether or not a congregation was present. Certainly that is the way I have always experienced it, in theological college and parishes. I think many cathedrals omit it at Choral Evensong.
The Shortened Services Act of the early 1870s (either '71 or '73) allowed some omissions from the daily Office, and, IIRC, the exhortation was one of them. The others, which never really caught on, were the leaving out all but one psalm, one lesson, one canticle, and the second Lord's Prayer. I have actually done the BCP office ths way when I was a student and trying to fit it into Daily Prayer slot at college, and it works OK. OTOH, I prefer the full office sung.
The 1928 Its-Not-Really-A-BCP allowed the omission of the whole of the penitential introduction. As most bishops decided to tolerate the 1928 PBCP unofficially, many of its provisions found their way into common use. That expains the omission of the penitential intro. at most cathedral Evensongs. It also explains the production of the old green 'Shorter BCP' but that maye a different thread.
PD
[ 26. August 2011, 15:34: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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jordan32404
Shipmate
# 15833
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Posted
In private use, I just skip the Exhortation, it really doesn't make much sense to exhort myself to confess with myself.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
In private use, I just skip the Exhortation, it really doesn't make much sense to exhort myself to confess with myself.
We skip the penitential bits in our parish Daily Office. It's rubrical because we're in the 1979 BCP (USA). There's always a confession and absolution at Mass, which often follows the Office.
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
In private use, I just skip the Exhortation, it really doesn't make much sense to exhort myself to confess with myself.
Well, that depends. When I used the old form for the daily office, (the 1662) I would read the whole office by the book. One or more sentences, then the exortation and all the way through.
Once when I dropped the prayer book during the exhortation, I was suprised to find my mouth still uttering the words. Words and phrases still come back after decades. There are beautiful ideas of worship in there, and constant repetition will surely pound it into your cranium and then perhaps into your soul so you can keep it.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
It helps that Cranmer's prose has a knack for pounding itself into the old noggin. However, you have to be able to read it without butchering it. My last deacon - who has now moved on ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) to what he believes to be "better things" - butchered BCP on a regular basis and would not take advice from the old hands. The results were painful. I am actually enjoying not having a curate at the moment.
PD
[ 27. August 2011, 15:58: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by catholicedinburgh:
**BUMP**
If anyone is interested, I have a copy of Monastic Diurnal Noted for sale on ebay at the moment. Search for reference [advertising removed] and you'll see it.
Thanks
Catholicedinburgh, advertising items for sale is not allowed under the Ship's Commandment #9. Accordingly, I've removed the reference from your post. You may, however, include a link in your signature.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Aelred of Riveaux
Shipmate
# 12833
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
I do indeed always announce to my dearly beloved brethren that I pray and beseech them to accompany me with a pure heart and humble voice unto the throne of the heavenly grace, even though they are conspicuously absent. It's strange, yes. But surely the angels are listening.
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
That's certainly the way it's done in the Colleges near me, Angloid. But on Sunday, whether in parish or College the penitential material is included. Sadly, I don't think any of the Cambridge Colleges use the exhortations.
Jesus College does, or at least used to under the previous Chaplain, on Saturday and Sunday evenings at evensong. I don't know if anything has changed in the last year since the new Chaplain has come.
Posts: 161 | From: Cambridge UK | Registered: Jul 2007
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Peterhouse always began Sunday evensong with sentence and exhortation in my day. Things have changed under the New Regime though, so I don't know if that still pertains.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Secondly, I am planning a trip that involves packing lightly and no internet access for long periods of time and am looking for something like a BCP, bible and psalter in one volume.
Celebrating Common Prayer pocket edition is quite good, I think.
This is a bit late - I hope your trip went well if you were away.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
Discussion of a travel-friendly Office book makes me think of my ideal Office book: complete psalter in a month or four weeks; one volume containing all material necessary to pray the complete Office (whether MP and EP or a monastic round or sevenfold Office); large print; handy size for holding or packing for travel; all necessary rubrics and handy charts and tables to find one's places; eight ribbon markers; supple soft leather; practically indestructible; creamy ivory-colored substantial paper. Oh, and pointing for chant throughout. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
There are TONS of apps for praying the office in practically every tradition. This makes for very portable breviaries.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Discussion of a travel-friendly Office book makes me think of my ideal Office book: complete psalter in a month or four weeks; one volume containing all material necessary to pray the complete Office (whether MP and EP or a monastic round or sevenfold Office); large print; handy size for holding or packing for travel; all necessary rubrics and handy charts and tables to find one's places; eight ribbon markers; supple soft leather; practically indestructible; creamy ivory-colored substantial paper. Oh, and pointing for chant throughout.
Bound in "British post-box red" morocco! And one of the ribbons in Sarum blue!
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Secondly, I am planning a trip that involves packing lightly and no internet access for long periods of time and am looking for something like a BCP, bible and psalter in one volume.
Celebrating Common Prayer pocket edition is quite good, I think.
CCP travel edition is a rather idiosyncratic version of the office, though. I would have thought that someone had produced a BCP plus Bible in one volume. Surely.
Alternatively, the Roman Rite Morning and Evening Prayer fits the 'all in one book' requirement.
[ 02. October 2011, 11:02: Message edited by: Divine Outlaw Dwarf ]
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insert amusing sig. here
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
But it weighs nearly nearly 1 kg and is 6 cm thick and "brick" is the first word to spring to mind when considering it.
BTW Oblatus what is that "brown leather binding" actually like?
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Today I came across The Shorter Prayer Book (a first edition too, with forward by Geoffrey Cantuar) for the first time and was mildly shocked. Anything anyone can tell me about its use?
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
But it weighs nearly nearly 1 kg and is 6 cm thick and "brick" is the first word to spring to mind when considering it.
BTW Oblatus what is that "brown leather binding" actually like?
I think any combo containing the whole Bible will be at least that heavy.
My copy is from the original edition published long ago. Then there was a hiatus of many years until this new range of editions of various colors and types of material was released. Mine from OUP has a very soft black leather. I find it a handy size for travel and for holding, although it's not thin enough for my usual messenger bag. On a trip, I often wrap it in grocery-bag brown paper (to prevent stuff invading the pages) and place it in my suitcase.
So I haven't handled any of the newer "small brick" BCP/NRSV combos. Just the well-worn one I have from 1990.
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Unless we can convince Cambridge UP to put the whole thing out in transetto (flip-back)...like the new KJV edition...
It would still be thick as a brick of course - but a tiny little brick.
And ribbons would be a problem...I have tried with my transetto - looks really silly as well as being on completely the wrong angle so you end up either crossing your hands or re-flipping the book to "upright" to get to the next ribbon...
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
And ribbons would be a problem...I have tried with my transetto - looks really silly as well as being on completely the wrong angle so you end up either crossing your hands or re-flipping the book to "upright" to get to the next ribbon...
Isn't that why God created Post-Its™?
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus
large print; handy size for holding or packing for travel;
I think that has to be a choice. It's either largish print, a spacious layout and large book, like CW Daily Prayer + a separate Bible, or small print, compressed layout, thin crinkly paper that's difficult to use and a book that can go in luggage. It's not possible to have both.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Today I came across The Shorter Prayer Book (a first edition too, with forward by Geoffrey Cantuar) for the first time and was mildly shocked. Anything anyone can tell me about its use?
They use it for the Office at Margaret Street.
It was the CofE's response to having the 1928 Prayerbook rejected, as far as I remember. (Which seems to be confirmed by this.)
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Today I came across The Shorter Prayer Book (a first edition too, with forward by Geoffrey Cantuar) for the first time and was mildly shocked. Anything anyone can tell me about its use?
They use it for the Office at Margaret Street.
It was the CofE's response to having the 1928 Prayerbook rejected, as far as I remember. (Which seems to be confirmed by this.)
Thurible
Yes, although it is interesting to recall that in the immediate aftermath, the CofE's response to the rejection of the 1928 book appears to have been to use it anyway! See here, about halfway down. I do occasionally see copies of the Shorter PB (in fact I think I may have passed one on to a shipmate) but I wasn't clear that they had much use.
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
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Isn't that why God created Post-Its™? [/QB][/QUOTE]
Oblatus...pass me the smelling salts!
I feel as if I'm about to faint dead away!
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Galilit, when you've been sufficiently revived ![[Biased]](wink.gif) , you might pay a visit to our UBB Practice Thread, where you can experiment with the various formatting functions available for your posts.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Oblatus...pass me the smelling salts!
I feel as if I'm about to faint dead away!
I know: Post-Its instead of ribbon markers? Where's the fun in that? The arrival of a new breviary should be closely followed by the careful ironing of its ribbon markers.
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
I do occasionally see copies of the Shorter PB (in fact I think I may have passed one on to a shipmate) but I wasn't clear that they had much use.
My experience with it suggests that there were rural parishes who took up the Shorter PB and have never ceased to use it.
[ 04. October 2011, 06:05: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Anymore, I prefer new breviaries arrive sans ribbons. Instead, I use this.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Anymore, I prefer new breviaries arrive sans ribbons. Instead, I use this.
Yes, that's one of the best of the installable sets. I have several of the LBW version, purchased at the Lutheran Center's Augsburg-Fortress shop, of blessed memory. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
My friend Meg of the Prairies sewed us a set for our (post-box red) Book(s) of Common Prayer, 1662.
You can buy ribbon 4mm wide (even 2mm!)by the metre/yard from sewing notions type shops.
That way we had the same BCP and the same ribbons even if we lived on different sides of the world. Then she sewed another set in the same colours for my daughter's Siddur (the Jewish "Office Book"). It was such a sweet prezzie for her giyyur (conversion to Judaism).
There are links here somewhere from ages ago on how to make them too - with card and glue. Really easy - 15 min work and a lot of that is watching the glue dry! And you get the perfect colours and shades you want that way.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
I do occasionally see copies of the Shorter PB (in fact I think I may have passed one on to a shipmate) but I wasn't clear that they had much use.
My experience with it suggests that there were rural parishes who took up the Shorter PB and have never ceased to use it.
I've spotted the Shorter PB in the religion section of our local Waterstones.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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